The Record

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru
The National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion

The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 28 Medi 2011

Wednesday, 28 September 2011

Cynnwys
Contents

3......... Cwestiynau i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy
Questions to the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development

15....... Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth
Questions to the Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage

26....... Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order

27....... Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Busnesau
Welsh Conservatives Debate: Businesses

42....... Dadl Plaid Cymru:Ysbytai Cyffedinol Dosbarth
Plaid Cymru Debate: District General Hospitals

60....... Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru: Cronfa Swyddi Cymru
Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate: The Welsh Jobs Fund

76 Cyfnod Pleidleisio
Voting Time

88....... Dadl Fer: Yr Anabledd Cudd—Materion Clyw yng Nghymru
Short Debate: The Hidden Disability—Hearing Issues in Wales

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir cyfieithiad Saesneg o gyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In addition, an English translation of Welsh speeches is included.

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m.gyda’r Dirprwy Lywydd (David Melding) yn y Gadair.

The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m.with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Melding) in the Chair.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Prynhawn da.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Good afternoon.

Cwestiynau i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy
Questions to the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development

Ardoll ar Fagiau Siopa Untro

Carrier Bag Levy

1. Julie Morgan: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi eu cael gyda busnesau bach am weithredu’r tâl am fagiau plastig. OAQ(4)0025(ESD)

1. Julie Morgan: What discussions has the Minister had with small businesses about the implementation of the charge on plastic bags. OAQ(4)0025(ESD)

5. Russell George: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gyflwyno’r ardoll ar fagiau siopa untro yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0034(ESD)

5. Russell George: Will the Minister make a statement about the introduction of the Single Use Carrier Bag levy in Wales. OAQ(4)0034(ESD)

The Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development (John Griffiths): In responding to the concerns of small businesses regarding the implementation of the carrier bag charge, we have issued a retailer support pack, produced guidance and removed the record-keeping requirements for the smallest of businesses.

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy (John Griffiths): Wrth ymateb i bryderon busnesau bach o ran gweithrediad y tâl am fagiau siopa, rydym wedi cyhoeddi pecyn cymorth manwerthwr, wedi cynhyrchu canllawiau a dileu’r gofynion cadw cofnodion ar gyfer y lleiaf o fusnesau.

Julie Morgan: I thank the Minister for that reply and I welcome the introduction of this effort to reduce the use of plastic bags. Will the Minister give more details about how the charge will impact on businesses employing fewer than 10 people, where the charge will still be collected but where no records will be kept? What advice will those small businesses be given about where the money is to go?

Julie Morgan: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am yr ateb hwnnw ac yr wyf yn croesawu cyflwyno’r ymdrech hon i leihau’r defnydd o fagiau plastig. A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi rhagor o fanylion am sut y bydd y tâl yn effeithio ar fusnesau sy’n cyflogi llai na 10 o bobl, lle y bydd y tâl yn dal i gael ei gasglu, ond lle na fydd cofnodion yn cael eu cadw? Pa gyngor a roddir i’r busnesau bach hynny ynghylch ble mae’r arian yn mynd?

John Griffiths: As the Member rightly says, there will be no requirement on retailers with fewer than 10 employees to keep records on the use of the proceeds of the charge, or the amount collected. We expect customers to ask questions as to the use of proceeds of the charge, and to get answers from the retailers. In addition, we are working with a number of environmental organisations in Wales, encouraging them to link with retailers and retail organisations with suggestions as to what good environmental causes in Wales would benefit from the proceeds of the charge.

John Griffiths: Fel y mae’r Aelod yn ei ddweud yn hollol gywir, ni fydd unrhyw ofyniad ar fanwerthwyr sydd â llai na 10 o weithwyr i gadw cofnodion ar y defnydd o enillion y tâl, neu’r swm a gasglwyd. Rydym yn disgwyl i gwsmeriaid i ofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â’r defnydd o enillion y tâl, ac i gael atebion gan y manwerthwyr. Yn ogystal â hyn, rydym yn gweithio gyda nifer o sefydliadau amgylcheddol yng Nghymru, gan eu hannog i gysylltu gyda manwerthwyr a sefydliadau adwerthu gydag awgrymiadau ynghylch pa achosion amgylcheddol da yng Nghymru byddai’n elwa o enillion y tâl.

Russell George: Minister, how much leadership have you shown in the awareness and implementation of these regulations? I have spoken to businesses in my constituency, many of which are either unaware or unprepared to implement these regulations from this Saturday. We have had a planned delay that, according to the Government’s reasoning, was to help retailers to fully get to grips with these regulations. The awareness campaign was started in mid-August and the final set of regulations was published little more than three weeks before they were due to come in. Was the delay really to help retailers, or was it because the Government had not got the legislation and guidance ready?

Russell George: Weinidog, faint o arweinyddiaeth ydych chi wedi’i ddangos o ran yr ymwybyddiaeth o’r rheoliadau hyn ac o ran eu gweithredu? Rwyf wedi siarad â busnesau yn fy etholaeth i ac y mae llawer ohonynt naill ai ddim yn ymwybodol neu heb fod yn barod i weithredu’r rheoliadau hyn o ddydd Sadwrn. Cafwyd oedi a gynlluniwyd, yn ôl rhesymeg y Llywodraeth, i helpu manwerthwyr i fynd i’r afael yn llawn â’r rheoliadau hyn. Dechreuodd yr ymgyrch ymwybyddiaeth ganol mis Awst a chyhoeddwyd y set derfynol o reoliadau ychydig yn fwy na thair wythnos cyn eu bod i fod i ddod i mewn. A oedd yr oedi mewn gwirionedd i helpu manwerthwyr, neu a oedd oherwydd nad oedd y Llywodraeth wedi cael y ddeddfwriaeth a’r canllawiau yn barod?

John Griffiths: The delay was a matter of listening to what businesses in Wales were telling us and responding to that. We have sent over 40,000 packs to businesses across Wales. We have external advertisements around the country and there has been extensive media coverage. I was out on the streets of Newport and at the McArthur Glen shopping centre earlier today, and I found that awareness from the general public and retailers was very high.

John Griffiths: Roedd yr oedi yn fater o wrando ar yr hyn yr oedd busnesau yng Nghymru yn dweud wrthym ac ymateb i hynny. Rydym wedi anfon dros 40,000 o becynnau i fusnesau ledled Cymru. Mae gennym hysbysebion allanol o amgylch y wlad a bu sylw eang yn y cyfryngau. Roeddwn i allan ar strydoedd Casnewydd ac yn y ganolfan siopa McArthur Glen yn gynharach heddiw, a gwelais fod ymwybyddiaeth ymysg y cyhoedd a manwerthwyr yn gyffredinol yn uchel iawn.

Russell George: With regard to that figure of 40,000 awareness packs, I have spoken to a number of businesses in my constituency that would be affected, and they have categorically told me that they have received no information from the Government. How confident is the Minister that the numbers were correct and that each of those packs was properly directed to the intended business?

Russell George: O ran y ffigur hwnnw o 40,000 o becynnau ymwybyddiaeth, yr wyf wedi siarad â nifer o fusnesau yn fy etholaeth i a fydd yn cael eu heffeithio, ac maent wedi dweud yn bendant wrthyf nad ydynt wedi derbyn unrhyw wybodaeth gan y Llywodraeth. Pa mor hyderus yw’r Gweinidog fod y niferoedd yn gywir a bod pob un o’r pecynnau hynny wedi’i gyfeirio’n briodol i’r busnes a fwriedir?

John Griffiths: I am very confident that those 40,000 packs were properly addressed and rightly delivered. However, if the Member would like to draw any businesses to my attention, I can certainly cause checks to be made.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn hyderus iawn bod y 40,000 o becynnau hynny wedi eu cyfeirio’n gywir ac wedi eu danfon yn gywir. Fodd bynnag, os byddai’r Aelod yn dymuno dod ag unrhyw fusnesau i fy sylw, gallaf sicrhau fod hynny’n cael ei wirio.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Yr wyf yn mawr obeithio, Weinidog, eich bod wedi mynd â’ch bag bach plastig gyda chi wrth ymweld â’r siopau hyn fel rhan o’ch dyletswyddau fel Gweinidog. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn cytuno bod problemau ymarferol o ran sicrhau bod pob busnes yn darganfod yr union wybodaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt mewn mater fel hyn, pan gyflwynir newid sylfaenol. Un cwestiwn sydd wedi’i godi gyda mi yw beth sy’n digwydd i siopau sy’n darparu bag sydd 100 y cant yn ailgylchadwy? A oes rhaid iddynt godi pris am y bag hwnnw hefyd?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I very much hope that you took your little plastic bag with you, Minister, when you visited these shops in an official capacity. I am sure that you agree that practical problems arise in terms of ensuring that all businesses get the information that they need when a fundamental change is introduced. One question that has been raised with me is what happens to shops that provide 100 per cent recycled bags? Do they have to charge for those bags too?

John Griffiths: The criterion is ‘single use’. If the bag is produced as a single-use bag, it is subject to the charge. If it is reusable, the charge does not apply. So I think that it is quite clear.

John Griffiths: Y maen brawf yw ‘un tro’. Os bydd y bag yn cael ei gynhyrchu fel bag un-tro, codir tâl amdano. Os gellir eu hailddefnyddio, nid yw’r tâl yn berthnasol. Felly, yr wyf yn meddwl ei bod yn eithaf clir.

Nick Ramsay: Minister, there is clearly a great deal of concern surrounding the implementation of this policy, and while I hear what you say about being confident that you are engaging with businesses, a number of issues have been raised with me. Specifically, with regard to the fact that shops employing fewer than 10 people are exempt from the paperwork, that is great and fine as far as it goes, but I have been contacted by businesses that are concerned about the implications in terms of keeping VAT records. Clearly, an element of form-keeping and records will be required. What guidance are you giving to businesses to ensure that they are confident that they can meet the requirements of this new law? Would you consider giving some businesses a period of grace, to ensure that they get this right?

Nick Ramsay: Weinidog, mae’n amlwg bod llawer iawn o bryder am y polisi hwn ar waith, ac er fy mod yn clywed yr hyn a ddywedwch am fod yn hyderus eich bod yn ymgysylltu â busnesau, mae nifer o faterion wedi cael eu codi gyda mi. Yn benodol, o ran y ffaith fod siopau sy’n cyflogi llai na 10 o bobl yn cael eu heithrio rhag y gwaith papur, mae hynny’n wych ac yn iawn cyn belled ag y mae’n mynd, ond yr wyf wedi cysylltu â busnesau sy’n pryderu am y goblygiadau o ran cadw cofnodion TAW. Yn amlwg, bydd angen elfen o gadw cyfrifon a chofnodion. Pa ganllawiau ydych yn eu rhoi i fusnesau er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn hyderus eu bod yn gallu bodloni gofynion y gyfraith newydd hon? A fyddech yn ystyried rhoi cyfnod o ras i rai busnesau, er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn cael hyn yn iawn?

John Griffiths: Experience elsewhere, such as in Ireland, for example, shows that this sort of charge is very quickly accepted and does work unproblematically. We also had the experience of the smoking ban; there was a lot of concern beforehand that there would be many problems, but they did not, in fact, materialise. We have disseminated a lot of information to businesses through business packs, there is a website that businesses can access and they can also contact the Welsh Government directly. It is designed to be cost-neutral to business, and we have been very mindful of costs and benefits for retailers. In terms of enforcement, we have said that, for the first three months, there will be a very light touch approach to enforcement, because we want to see the scheme bed in successfully.

John Griffiths: Mae profiad mewn mannau eraill, megis yn Iwerddon, er enghraifft, yn dangos bod y math hwn o dâl yn cael ei dderbyn yn gyflym iawn ac yn gweithio heb broblemau. Rydym hefyd wedi cael y profiad o’r gwaharddiad ar ysmygu; roedd llawer o bryder ymlaen llaw y byddai llawer o broblemau, ond ni wnaethant gael eu gwireddu mewn gwirionedd. Rydym wedi lledaenu llawer o wybodaeth i fusnesau trwy becynnau busnes, mae gwefan y gall busnesau gael mynediad iddo a gallant hefyd gysylltu â Llywodraeth Cymru yn uniongyrchol. Mae wedi ei gynllunio i fod yn niwtral o ran cost i fusnesau, ac rydym wedi bod yn ymwybodol iawn o gostau a manteision ar gyfer manwerthwyr. O ran gorfodi, yr ydym wedi dweud y bydd dull ysgafn iawn o ran gorfodi ar gyfer y tri mis cyntaf, gan ein bod eisiau gweld y cynllun yn llwyddo.

Rhanddeiliaid Ynni Adnewyddadwy

Renewable Energy Stakeholders

2. Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Pa ymatebion y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u derbyn i’w lythyr at randdeiliaid ynni adnewyddadwy dyddiedig 6 Gorffennaf. OAQ(4)0021(ESD)

2. Lord Elis-Thomas: What responses has the Minister received to his letter to renewable energy stakeholders dated 6 July. OAQ(4)0021(ESD)

John Griffiths: Er nad wyf wedi derbyn unrhyw ymatebion ffurfiol, yr wyf i a’m swyddogion mewn trafodaethau rheolaidd gyda’r holl randdeiliaid.

John Griffiths: Although I have not received any formal responses, I and my officials hold regular discussions with all stakeholders.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Diolch yn fawr i’r Gweinidog am ei ateb rhugl yn y Gymraeg. A fyddai’n deg i mi awgrymu efallai fod y Gweinidog wedi gorfod anfon ei lythyr am fod datganiad ysgrifenedig gwreiddiol y Prif Weinidog ar 17 Mehefin yn amwys?

Lord Elis-Thomas: Thank you, Minister, for your fluent Welsh answer. Would it be fair for me to suggest that perhaps the Minister had to send that letter because the original written statement issued by the First Minister on 17 June was vague?

John Griffiths: No. The First Minister made it absolutely clear that there were maximum outputs for technical advice note 8 in terms of the strategic search areas. My letter merely provided further detail as to what those maximum outputs are.

John Griffiths: Na. Roedd y Prif Weinidog yn gwbl glir fod yna allbynnau uchaf ar gyfer nodyn cyngor technegol 8 yn nhermau’r ardaloedd chwilio strategol. Roedd fy llythyr ond yn darparu rhagor o fanylion ynghylch beth yw’r allbynnau uchaf hynny.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Yr wyf yn derbyn nad yw’r Gweinidog wedi cael trafodaethau uniongyrchol gyda rhanddeiliaid sy’n gwmnïau buddsoddi mewn ynni adnewyddadwy, ond a fyddai’n rhyfeddu fy mod i, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, ac Aelod Cynulliad mewn ardal lle mae datblygiadau’n debygol o ddigwydd, wedi cael trafodaethau gyda chwmnïau, a’u bod yn dweud nad yw Cymru yn lle da i fuddsoddi mewn ynni adnewyddadwy, gan fod y gyfundrefn gynllunio mor gymhleth?

Lord Elis-Thomas: I accept that the Minister has had no direct negotiations with stakeholders that are investment companies in renewable energy, but would he be surprised that I, as Chair of the committee and an Assembly Member for an area where developments are likely to happen, have had negotiations with companies and that they tell me that Wales is not a good place to invest in renewable energy because the planning system is so complex?

John Griffiths: It is absolutely clear. Both I and the First Minister have made it very clear that, without the further devolution that is necessary to produce a more streamlined, understandable and simplified system, there will be difficulties in the process. We will do everything that we can to make the system of achieving the sort of generation through renewable energy that we want to see in Wales a reality within the current powers that we have, but we are very mindful of the need to make further progress with that very necessary further devolution to produce a much better system.

John Griffiths: Mae’n gwbl glir. Yr wyf fi a’r Prif Weinidog wedi ei wneud yn glir iawn y bydd anawsterau yn y broses, heb y datganoli pellach sydd ei angen i gynhyrchu system symlach a dealladwy. Byddwn yn gwneud popeth y gallwn ei wneud er mwyn gwneud y system o gyflawni’r math o gynhyrchu drwy ynni adnewyddadwy yr ydym am ei weld yng Nghymru yn realiti o fewn y pwerau presennol sydd gennym, ond rydym yn ymwybodol iawn o’r angen i wneud cynnydd pellach gyda’r datganoli pellach sy’n angenrheidiol iawn i gynhyrchu system well o lawer.

Antoinette Sandbach: In your recent evidence to the Environment and Sustainability Committee, you emphasised that there is no need to review TAN 8 and that it is a necessary policy that defines renewable energy strategy and protects rural Wales from the overdevelopment of wind turbines. Earlier that same day, however, the First Minister stated that TAN 8 was no longer relevant with regard to planning applications above 50 MW. He gave the impression that this policy, which has encouraged plans for considerable development on Welsh Government land in the seven strategic search areas, is all but useless. As the Minister with responsibility for this policy, are you prepared to set the First Minister straight on this matter?

Antoinette Sandbach: Yn eich tystiolaeth ddiweddar i’r Pwyllgor Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd, bu i chi bwysleisio nad oes angen adolygu TAN 8 a’i fod yn bolisi angenrheidiol sy’n diffinio strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy ac yn gwarchod cefn gwlad Cymru o or-ddatblygiad tyrbinau gwynt. Yn gynharach y diwrnod hwnnw, fodd bynnag, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog nad oedd TAN 8 bellach yn berthnasol mewn perthynas â cheisiadau cynllunio sydd yn uwch na 50 MW. Rhoddodd yr argraff bod y polisi hwn, sydd wedi annog cynlluniau ar gyfer datblygiad sylweddol ar dir Llywodraeth Cymru yn y saith ardal chwilio strategol, yn ddiwerth. Fel y Gweinidog sy’n gyfrifol am y polisi hwn, a ydych yn barod i gywiro barn y Prif Weinidog am y mater hwn?

John Griffiths: I am fully prepared to absolutely agree with everything that the First Minister said in making the obvious case for further devolution if we are to achieve the sort of energy environment that is badly needed in Wales. To achieve our policies for renewable energy, we need further devolution. The current problem is, as the First Minister stated, that applications for projects over 50 MW are a matter for the Infrastructure Planning Commission, and while TAN 8 is relevant, it is the national policy statements of the UK Government that apply in those cases and TAN 8 can be largely ignored. That is the point that the First Minister was making, and I very much agree with it.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn hollol barod i gytuno’n llwyr â phopeth a ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrth wneud yr achos amlwg dros ddatganoli pellach os ydym i gyrraedd y math o amgylchedd ynni sydd ei angen yn wael yng Nghymru. Er mwyn cyflawni ein polisïau ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy, mae angen datganoli pellach. Y broblem ar hyn o bryd yw, fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, bod ceisiadau ar gyfer prosiectau dros 50 MW yn fater i’r Comisiwn Cynllunio Seilwaith, ac er bod TAN 8 yn berthnasol, datganiadau polisi cenedlaethol Llywodraeth y DU sy’n berthnasol yn yr achosion hynny a gellir anwybyddu TAN 8 i raddau helaeth. Dyna’r pwynt yr oedd y Prif Weinidog yn ei wneud, ac yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr ag ef.

Blaenoriaethau

Priorities

3. Aled Roberts: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu ei flaenoriaethau ar gyfer ei bortffolio yn y Gogledd. OAQ(4)0024(ESD)

3. Aled Roberts: Will the Minister outline his priorities for his portfolio in North Wales. OAQ(4)0024(ESD)

John Griffiths: Yr wyf wedi ymrwymo i gyflawni’r ymrwymiadau sydd wedi’u hamlinellu yn y rhaglen lywodraethu ar gyfer fy mhortffolio a hynny ar draws Cymru gyfan. Maent yn cynnwys rhoi lle canolog i ddatblygu cynaliadwy o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru ac integreiddio’r ffordd yr ydym yn rheoli ac yn rheoleiddio ein defnydd o’r tir, y môr, yr awyr a’r dŵr.

John Griffiths: I am committed to fulfilling, across Wales, the commitments that are set out for my portfolio in the programme for government. These include putting sustainable development at the heart of Government and integrating the way in which we manage and regulate our use of land, sea, air and water.

Aled Roberts: Wrth feddwl am y gyfundrefn trydan yn y gogledd a chynlluniau yn yr Wylfa, ac wrth ystyried bod y gwaith paratoi yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd ar y cynllun isadeiledd cenedlaethol, a oes trafodaethau wedi bod gyda’r Grid Cenedlaethol?

Aled Roberts: With regard to the electricity system in north Wales and plans for Wylfa, and considering the preparatory work taking place at present on the national infrastructure plan, have there been any discussions with National Grid?

John Griffiths: Yes, there have been discussions with the National Grid. We have regular discussions with National Grid and a number of distributors—officials are in regular contact. That is the case because the issues of infrastructure are important to achieving the sort of energy generation and delivery system that we want to see. I am precluded from discussing particular proposals, given my responsibilities as the Minister for planning, but general discussions are an important part of communication and ensuring that we have the energy system we need.

John Griffiths: Bu trafodaethau gyda’r Grid Cenedlaethol. Rydym yn cael trafodaethau rheolaidd gyda’r Grid Cenedlaethol a nifer o ddosbarthwyr—mae swyddogion mewn cysylltiad rheolaidd. Mae hynny’n wir oherwydd mae materion sy’n ymwneud â seilwaith yn bwysig i gyflawni’r math o gynhyrchu ynni a system gyflenwi yr ydym am ei weld. Yr wyf wedi fy atal rhag trafod cynigion penodol, o gofio fy nghyfrifoldebau fel y Gweinidog dros gynllunio, ond mae trafodaethau cyffredinol yn rhan bwysig o gyfathrebu a sicrhau bod gennym y system ynni y mae ei angen arnom.

Kenneth Skates: As we saw in the recent debate in England on the future of forests, woodlands elicit a great deal of passion. I would like to see ancient trees afforded historic monument status, to protect them and enhance them for tourism purposes. What work is the Government doing to protect ancient trees and safeguard woodlands?

Kenneth Skates: Fel y gwelsom yn y ddadl ddiweddar yn Lloegr ar ddyfodol coedwigoedd, mae coetiroedd yn ennyn llawer iawn o angerdd. Hoffwn weld coed hynafol yn cael statws heneb hanesyddol, i’w diogelu a’u gwella at ddibenion twristiaeth. Pa waith y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i warchod coed hynafol a diogelu coetiroedd?

John Griffiths: I appreciate the value that the Member puts on our ancient woodland. We are very fortunate to have extensive ancient woodland, which is valued by communities and organisations across the country.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi’r gwerth y mae’r Aelod yn ei roi ar ein coetir hynafol. Rydym yn ffodus iawn i gael coetir hynafol helaeth, sy’n cael ei werthfawrogi gan gymunedau a sefydliadau ar draws y wlad.

We have an ancient woodland inventory, and that provides comprehensive information. The inventory is currently being refreshed. Clearly, Forestry Commission Wales, in partnership with the Woodland Trust and the Countryside Council for Wales, will play a part in that necessary work. It is important that we have accurate, up-to-date information. Of course, the Welsh Government’s forestry strategy includes measures for the management of ancient trees and woodlands. When that further information is available, we will consider it carefully and develop policy accordingly.

Mae gennym restr o goetir hynafol, ac y mae’n darparu gwybodaeth gynhwysfawr. Mae’r rhestr yn cael ei hadnewyddu ar hyn o bryd. Yn amlwg, mae Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru, mewn partneriaeth â Choed Cadw a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, yn chwarae rhan yn y gwaith angenrheidiol hwnnw. Mae’n bwysig bod gennym wybodaeth gywir a diweddar. Wrth gwrs, mae strategaeth coedwigaeth Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnwys mesurau ar gyfer rheoli coed a choetiroedd hynafol. Pan fydd y wybodaeth bellach honno ar gael, byddwn yn ei hystyried yn ofalus ac yn datblygu polisi yn unol â hynny.

Mark Isherwood: With the welcome announcement that Anglesey is to have an enterprise zone to promote growth in the energy industry and the energy island project, what dialogue and input will you have with your colleague the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science and with the local communities and businesses affected? Minimising the environmental impact and promoting the health and safety of the public are priorities, and have been highlighted as such at meetings of the Wylfa new build project liaison group, among others.

Mark Isherwood: Gyda’r cyhoeddiad i’w groesawu fod Ynys Môn yw cael ardal fenter i hyrwyddo twf yn y diwydiant ynni a’r prosiect ynys ynni, pa ddeialog a mewnbwn y byddwch yn eu cael gyda’ch cydweithiwr, y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth a gyda chymunedau a busnesau lleol yr effeithir arnynt? Mae lleihau effaith amgylcheddol a hyrwyddo iechyd a diogelwch y cyhoedd yn flaenoriaethau, ac wedi cael eu hamlygu fel blaenoriaethau yng nghyfarfodydd grŵp cyswllt prosiect adeiladu newydd Wylfa, ymhlith eraill.

John Griffiths: I agree that it is very important that I have effective links with the Minister for business and others so that we can address energy, economic development, and environmental issues in the round. That has been, and will be, our approach, with sustainable development at the heart of what takes place on the ground.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn cytuno ei fod yn bwysig iawn bod gennyf gysylltiadau effeithiol gyda’r Gweinidog busnes ac eraill fel y gallwn fynd i’r afael ag ynni, datblygu economaidd, a materion amgylcheddol yn eu holl agweddau. Hynny oedd ein dull a hynny bydd ein dull, gyda datblygu cynaliadwy wrth wraidd yr hyn sy’n digwydd ar lawr gwlad.

1.45 p.m.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Mae’r gogledd, fel gweddill Cymru, yn wynebu nifer o heriau amgylcheddol. Un ohonynt yw bod bioamrywiaeth yn parhau i gael ei cholli ar raddfa frawychus. Gan gofio’r pwyslais sy’n cael ei roi ar y sector amaeth o safbwynt cyflawni targedau bioamrywiaeth, beth fydd eich ymwneud chi â’r broses o ddiwygio’r polisi amaethyddol cyffredin?

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: North Wales, like the rest of Wales, is facing a number of environmental challenges, one of which is that biodiversity continues to be lost on a frightening scale. Bearing in mind the emphasis placed on the agricultural sector in relation to delivering biodiversity targets, what will be your part in the process of reforming the common agricultural policy?

John Griffiths: I work closely with my colleagues, the Minister for business and Alun Davies, the Deputy Minister for rural affairs. We have regular meetings and discussions. Agricultural support policy and agricultural policy in general are very important as far as biodiversity is concerned. We have important strategies in place that will ensure better biodiversity in Wales in future. The natural environment framework will be extremely important in that regard, as will other policies. I will continue to work closely with ministerial colleagues and other stakeholders.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn gweithio’n agos gyda fy nghydweithwyr, y Gweinidog dros fusnes ac Alun Davies, y Dirprwy Weinidog dros faterion gwledig. Yr ydym yn cael cyfarfodydd a thrafodaethau rheolaidd. Mae polisi cymorth amaethyddol a pholisi amaethyddol yn gyffredinol yn bwysig iawn o ran bioamrywiaeth. Mae gennym strategaethau pwysig yn eu lle a fydd yn sicrhau gwell bioamrywiaeth yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol. Bydd y fframwaith amgylchedd naturiol yn hynod o bwysig yn y cyswllt hwnnw, fel y bydd polisïau eraill. Byddaf yn parhau i weithio’n agos gyda chydweithwyr gweinidogol a rhanddeiliaid eraill.

Blaenoriaethau Polisi Amgylcheddol

Environmental Policy Priorities

4. Joyce Watson: Beth yw blaenoriaethau polisi amgylcheddol y Gweinidog ar gyfer y tymor hwn. OAQ(4)0022(ESD)

4. Joyce Watson: What are the Minister’s environmental policy priorities for this term. OAQ(4)0022(ESD)

John Griffiths: Rwyf wedi ymrwymo i gyflawni, ar draws Cymru, yr ymrwymiadau sydd wedi’u nodi ar gyfer fy mhortffolio yn y rhaglen llywodraethu. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys rhoi datblygu cynaliadwy wrth wraidd y Llywodraeth ac integreiddio’r ffordd rydym yn rheoli ac yn rheoleiddio ein defnydd o dir, môr, aer a dŵr.

Joyce Watson: Thank you for that answer, Minister. The proposal to create a single environment body has important implications for how our natural environment will be managed for years to come. I have received many letters from constituents on this issue. Could you update us on the proposals and assure my constituents that the ongoing consultation will listen to the people who live and work in these areas, as well as the environmental managers? One major challenge is how the regulatory functions of the Countryside Council for Wales and the Environment Agency Wales can be integrated with the delivery function of the Forestry Commission Wales without losing focus.

Joyce Watson: Diolch i chi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Mae gan y cynnig i greu un corff amgylcheddol oblygiadau pwysig ar gyfer sut y bydd ein hamgylchedd naturiol yn cael ei reoli am flynyddoedd i ddod. Rwyf wedi derbyn nifer o lythyrau gan etholwyr ar y mater hwn. A allech roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni am y cynigion a rhoi sicrwydd i fy etholwyr y bydd yr ymgynghori parhaus yn gwrando ar y bobl sy’n byw a gweithio yn yr ardaloedd hyn, yn ogystal â’r rheolwyr amgylcheddol? Un her fawr yw sut y gall swyddogaethau rheoliadol Cyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd Cymru gael eu hintegreiddio gyda swyddogaeth weithredu Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru heb golli ffocws.

John Griffiths: I agree that it will be very important to understand how we could achieve a single body—if it is decided to go ahead with that proposal—without losing the current strengths of those three organisations. That is why we are going through a detailed business case at the moment, which looks at those issues, and many more regarding form and function, and at how to best move forward. It would very much be about an integrated approach, outcomes and further devolution, in a way, if a single environment body were to be established. I can offer assurances that a great deal of work has been done regarding consultation and meetings with a variety of stakeholders. As we move forward, we will continue with that approach. The communities that would be affected must be central to that.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn cytuno y bydd yn bwysig iawn i ddeall sut y gallem gyflawni un corff—os penderfynir bwrw ymlaen â’r cynnig hwnnw—heb golli cryfderau presennol y tri sefydliad. Dyna pam yr ydym yn mynd drwy achos busnes manwl ar hyn o bryd, sy’n edrych ar y materion hynny, a llawer mwy o ran ffurf a swyddogaeth, ac ar y ffordd orau i symud ymlaen. Byddai’n ymwneud yn fawr iawn ag ymagwedd integredig, canlyniadau a datganoli pellach, mewn ffordd, pe bai corff amgylcheddol yn cael ei sefydlu. Gallaf gynnig sicrwydd bod llawer iawn o waith wedi ei wneud ynghylch ymgynghori a chyfarfodydd gydag amrywiaeth o randdeiliaid. Wrth i ni symud ymlaen, byddwn yn parhau â’r dull hwnnw. Mae’n rhaid i’r cymunedau a fyddai’n cael eu heffeithio fod yn ganolog i hynny.

Kirsty Williams: Minister, given the nature of my constituency, many householders rely on private water supplies and septic tanks. This year, they have a double whammy with the introduction of the water supply regulations that will see them being charged for the testing of their private water supplies, and the need to register their septic tank before the end of the year. In comparison, in Scotland, the Government is exempting private supplies that supply less than 50 people, and, in England, the Environment Agency has suspended the requirement to register septic tanks. What steps are you, and the Welsh Government, taking to protect rural householders from additional bureaucracy and costs at this difficult time?

Kirsty Williams: Weinidog, o ystyried natur fy etholaeth i, mae llawer o ddeiliaid tai yn dibynnu ar gyflenwadau dŵr preifat a thanciau septig. Eleni, mae ganddynt ergyd ddwbl gyda chyflwyniad y rheoliadau cyflenwad dŵr a fydd yn gweld pris yn cael ei godi ar gyfer profi eu cyflenwadau dwr preifat, a’r angen i gofrestru eu tanciau septig cyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Mewn cymhariaeth, yn yr Alban, mae’r Llywodraeth yn eithrio cyflenwadau preifat sy’n cyflenwi llai na 50 o bobl, ac, yn Lloegr, mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd wedi atal y gofyniad i gofrestru tanciau septig. Pa gamau yr ydych chi, a Llywodraeth Cymru, yn eu cymryd i amddiffyn perchnogion tai gwledig rhag biwrocratiaeth a chostau ychwanegol ar yr adeg anodd hwn?

John Griffiths: We are committed to ensuring a top-quality environment in Wales. Water quality is important to that. We are seeking to work with communities and individuals across Wales to understand how we can best achieve that by working together. Although there may be a cost involved in achieving a top-quality environment and water supply, we believe that the cost is worth it. We will work closely with people, but it is important to understand the origin of pollution incidents if they are to be addressed adequately.

John Griffiths: Rydym wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau amgylchedd o’r ansawdd gorau yng Nghymru. Mae ansawdd dŵr yn bwysig i hynny. Rydym yn ceisio gweithio gyda chymunedau ac unigolion ledled Cymru i ddeall sut y gallwn gyflawni hynny orau drwy weithio gyda’n gilydd. Er y gall fod cost ynghlwm wrth gyflawni amgylchedd o’r safon uchaf, rydym yn credu bod y gost werth yr ymdrech. Byddwn yn gweithio’n agos â phobl, ond mae’n bwysig deall tarddiad y digwyddiadau o lygredd os ydynt i gael sylw digonol.

David Rees: Minister, the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 transferred responsibility for our coastline to the Assembly. What will the Welsh Government do to ensure access to beaches along that coastline, particularly in light of the construction of the Welsh coastal paths?

David Rees: Weinidog, trosglwyddodd Deddf y Môr a Mynediad i’r Arfordir 2009 gyfrifoldeb am ein harfordir i’r Cynulliad. Beth fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i sicrhau mynediad i draethau ar hyd y morlin, yn enwedig yng ngoleuni'r gwaith o adeiladu llwybrau arfordirol Cymru?

John Griffiths: At the moment, work is ongoing to complete the all-Wales coastal path by next May. Local authorities and the Countryside Council for Wales, among others, along with many communities across Wales, have been very important in taking forward this extremely significant project. It has great advantages in terms of not only attracting visitors to Wales and tourism, but also getting communities in Wales to become more active and enjoy the benefits to their health and quality of life. We are very committed to achieving this. I would be very pleased to hear about any issues that arise with regard to the coast and to play a part in resolving them, if possible.

John Griffiths: Ar hyn o bryd, mae gwaith yn mynd rhagddo i gwblhau’r llwybr arfordirol Cymru gyfan erbyn mis Mai nesaf. Mae awdurdodau lleol a Chyngor Cefn Gwlad Cymru, ymhlith eraill, ynghyd â llawer o gymunedau ledled Cymru, wedi bod yn bwysig iawn wrth fwrw ymlaen a’r prosiect hynod sylweddol hwn. Mae ganddo fanteision mawr o ran nid yn unig denu ymwelwyr i Gymru a thwristiaeth, ond hefyd cael cymunedau yng Nghymru i fod yn fwy actif a mwynhau manteision i’w hiechyd ac ansawdd eu bywydau. Rydym yn ymroddedig iawn i gyflawni hyn. Byddwn yn falch iawn o glywed am unrhyw faterion sy’n codi o ran yr arfordir ac i chwarae rhan yn eu datrys, os yn bosibl.

Angela Burns: Minister, you will be aware of the issues surrounding the RWE npower gas station in Pembroke, where two agencies responsible for delivering environmental objectives take opposing views. The matter has now been called in and referred to you and all sorts of other things are happening. There is an enormous threat to the £1 billion investment there and to jobs. Over the next few years, we are looking at the possibility of wind turbines being erected off the Pembrokeshire coast to supply power; many onshore structures will therefore be required and there will be a significant impact on the environment. I listened carefully to your answer to Joyce Watson about the new proposed agency—

Angela Burns: Weinidog, byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r materion sy’n gysylltiedig â gorsaf nwy RWE npower ym Mhenfro, lle mae dwy asiantaeth sy’n gyfrifol am gyflawni amcanion amgylcheddol yn cymryd safbwyntiau gwahanol. Mae’r mater bellach wedi ei alw i mewn ac wedi’i gyfeirio atoch chi ac mae pob math o bethau eraill yn digwydd. Mae bygythiad enfawr i’r buddsoddiad o £1 biliwn yno ac i swyddi. Dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, rydym yn edrych ar y posibilrwydd o dyrbinau gwynt yn cael eu codi oddi ar arfordir Sir Benfro i gyflenwi pŵer; bydd angen llawer o strwythurau ar y tir felly ac fe fydd yna effaith sylweddol ar yr amgylchedd. Gwrandewais yn ofalus ar eich ateb i Joyce Watson am yr asiantaeth arfaethedig newydd -

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Please ask a question.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Gofynnwch gwestiwn os gwelwch yn dda.

Angela Burns: Do you think that there would be a case for you to have direct control over large-scale power infrastructures in terms of the environmental benefits, working with the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science, so that we do not put these enormous projects that benefit Wales under such terrible pressure, time delays and cost problems?

Angela Burns: A ydych yn credu y byddai dadl i chi gael rheolaeth uniongyrchol dros seilweithiau pŵer ar raddfa fawr o ran y manteision amgylcheddol, gan weithio gyda’r Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth, fel nad ydym yn rhoi’r prosiectau enfawr hyn sydd o fudd i Gymru o dan bwysau ofnadwy o’r fath, oedi amser a phroblemau cost?

John Griffiths: I cannot, of course, comment on the merits of the permit application with regard to Pembroke power station, because of the possibility of a future appeal. However, in general terms, one advantage of having a single environment body would be to have a more integrated approach, which would allow for consideration of all of the issues under one roof, as it were, which might resolve some of the general issues relating to permitting and environmental matters. All of these matters are considered very carefully as we move forward in terms of any necessary change, and we are always open to ideas.

John Griffiths: Ni allaf, wrth gwrs, wneud sylw ar rinweddau’r cais am drwydded mewn perthynas â gorsaf bŵer Penfro, oherwydd y posibilrwydd o apêl yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, yn gyffredinol, un fantais o gael un corff amgylcheddol fyddai cael dull mwy integredig, a fyddai’n caniatáu ystyried popeth dan yr un to, fel petai, a allai ddatrys rhai o’r materion cyffredinol sy’n ymwneud â chaniatáu a materion amgylcheddol. Mae pob un o’r materion hyn yn cael eu hystyried yn ofalus iawn wrth i ni symud ymlaen o ran unrhyw newid angenrheidiol, ac rydym bob amser yn agored i syniadau.

Lles Anifeiliaid

Animal Welfare

6. Andrew R.T. Davies: Beth yw blaenoriaethau’r Gweinidog ar gyfer hybu iechyd anifeiliaid yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0030(ESD)

6. Andrew R.T. Davies: What are the Minister’s priorities for the promotion of animal health in Wales. OAQ(4)0030(ESD)

11. Rebecca Evans: Pa gynlluniau sydd gan y Llywodraeth i wella lles anifeiliaid yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0026(ESD)

11. Rebecca Evans: What plans does the Government have to improve animal welfare in Wales. OAQ(4)0026(ESD)

John Griffiths: My key priorities involve the eradication of bovine TB and taking steps to prevent and control other animal diseases. I will continue to work to improve animal welfare in general.

John Griffiths: Mae fy mlaenoriaethau allweddol yn cynnwys dileu TB mewn gwartheg a chymryd camau i atal a rheoli clefydau anifeiliaid eraill. Byddaf yn parhau i weithio i wella lles anifeiliaid yn gyffredinol.

The Leader of the Opposition (Andrew R.T. Davies): Thank you for that answer, Minister. Will you confirm whether the commission that you have set up to look into the evidence, which I understand that you announced on 5 August, is continuing its work to the agreed time frame and that you fully expect that commission to report to you in the time frame that you described, which, I believe, was by the end of the autumn?

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Andrew R.T. Davies): Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. A wnewch chi gadarnhau pa un ai yw’r comisiwn rydych wedi ei sefydlu i edrych i mewn i’r dystiolaeth, yr wyf yn deall y cyhoeddoch ar 5 Awst, yn parhau â’i waith i’r amserlen y cytunwyd arno a’ch bod yn llawn ddisgwyl y bydd y comisiwn yn adrodd yn ôl i chi yn ôl yr amserlen a ddisgrifiwyd gennych chi, a oedd, yr wyf yn credu, erbyn diwedd yr hydref?

John Griffiths: I can confirm that.

John Griffiths: Gallaf gadarnhau hynny.

Rebecca Evans: In recent years, we have seen an increase in the use of sky lanterns. Although they look attractive, they can have a very ugly effect on animals. They pose a danger to wildlife and domestic animals and can also have a devastating effect on livestock. On top of the obvious animal welfare issues, the coastguard, fire service and aviation industry have all expressed concerns about sky lanterns. Will the Minister consider joining countries such as Germany, Australia and parts of New Zealand in bringing forward legislation to ban these lanterns?

Rebecca Evans: Yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, rydym wedi gweld cynnydd yn y defnydd o lusernau awyr. Er eu bod yn edrych yn ddeniadol, gallant gael effaith hyll iawn ar anifeiliaid. Maent yn beryglus i fywyd gwyllt ac anifeiliaid domestig a gall hefyd gael effaith andwyol ar dda byw. Ar ben y materion lles anifeiliaid amlwg, mae gwylwyr y glannau, y gwasanaeth tân a’r diwydiant awyrennau i gyd wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch llusernau awyr. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried ymuno â gwledydd megis yr Almaen, Awstralia a rhannau o Seland Newydd i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth i wahardd y llusernau hyn?

John Griffiths: I am aware that there are concerns that sky lanterns are a fire hazard and have posed a danger to livestock. That is certainly the view of some. I am very willing to give careful consideration to views on these issues. Officials will monitor the situation and liaise with interested parties. I know that some UK lantern makers have suggested possible improvements to the materials used, particularly in relation to avoiding wire components. We are very keen to raise awareness in Wales of any hazards, and to work with partners in rural areas. I am very interested to hear views on these issues and consider the best way forward.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod yna bryderon bod llusernau awyr yn berygl tân ac wedi peri perygl i dda byw. Mae hynny’n sicr yn farn i rai. Yr wyf yn barod iawn i roi ystyriaeth ofalus i’r dadleuon ar y materion hyn. Bydd swyddogion yn monitro’r sefyllfa ac yn cysylltu gyda phawb sy’n cael eu heffeithio. Gwn fod rhai gwneuthurwyr llusern y DU wedi awgrymu gwelliannau posibl i’r deunyddiau a ddefnyddir, yn enwedig o ran osgoi cydrannau gwifren. Rydym yn awyddus iawn i godi ymwybyddiaeth yng Nghymru o unrhyw beryglon, ac i weithio gyda phartneriaid mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr i glywed barn ar y materion hyn ac ystyried y ffordd orau ymlaen.

Elin Jones: Most people have a pub or a chapel at the end of their street. I do not; I have a Government animal health laboratory. That will not be the case for long, however, because the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has given the go-ahead to the closure of the only two laboratories of their kind in Wales—in Aberystwyth and Carmarthen. Given that powers on animal health are devolved to the Welsh Government and that the budget was devolved in April this year, did you agree to the laboratory closures with the UK Government? If not, what representations did you make to DEFRA to oppose their closure?

Elin Jones: Mae gan y rhan fwyaf o bobl dafarn neu gapel ar ddiwedd eu stryd. Nid oes gen i; mae gen i labordy iechyd anifeiliaid y Llywodraeth. Ni fydd hynny’n wir am hir, fodd bynnag, oherwydd bod Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig wedi rhoi sêl bendith i gau un o’r unig ddau labordy o’u math yng Nghymru—yn Aberystwyth a Chaerfyrddin. O gofio bod pwerau ar iechyd anifeiliaid wedi’u datganoli i Lywodraeth Cymru a bod y gyllideb wedi’i ddatganoli ym mis Ebrill eleni, a wnaethoch chi gytuno i gau’r labordai gyda Llywodraeth y DU? Os na, pa sylwadau a wnaethoch chi i DEFRA i wrthwynebu eu cau?

John Griffiths: We have not agreed to the closure of animal health laboratories in Wales. It is not my understanding that closure has been decided upon, although I understand that job losses are involved, as well as the transfer of some services to English laboratories. I am very interested in these matters. We want to maintain a presence in Wales and an ability to respond to issues that arise here. We will continue to make our views known to the UK Government in order to protect the best interests of Wales.

John Griffiths: Nid ydym wedi cytuno i gau labordai iechyd anifeiliaid yng Nghymru. Nid wyf yn deall bod penderfyniad wedi cael ei wneud i’w cau, er fy mod yn deall bod colli swyddi yn rhan o hyn, yn ogystal â throsglwyddo rhai gwasanaethau i labordai yn Lloegr. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr yn y materion hyn. Rydym yn awyddus i gynnal presenoldeb yng Nghymru a’r gallu i ymateb i faterion sy’n codi yma. Byddwn yn parhau i wneud ein barn yn hysbys i Lywodraeth y DU er mwyn diogelu buddiannau pennaf Cymru.

Vaughan Gething: Minister, I welcome the Welsh Government’s commitment to introducing new dog-breeding regulations. I believe that it is essential that the regulations help to enhance animal welfare and tackle some of the very poor practices in large-scale puppy farms, while balancing that against the interests of responsible smaller breeders. Can you confirm that those competing interests will be taken into account when drawing up the detail of the regulations?

Vaughan Gething: Weinidog, croesawaf ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i gyflwyno rheoliadau bridio cŵn newydd. Credaf ei fod yn hanfodol bod y rheoliadau yn helpu i wella lles anifeiliaid a mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r arferion gwael iawn mewn ffermydd cŵn bach ar raddfa fawr, wrth gydbwyso hynny yn erbyn buddiannau bridwyr llai sy’n gyfrifol. A allwch gadarnhau y bydd y buddiannau hynny sy’n cystadlu gyda’i gilydd yn cael eu hystyried wrth lunio manylion y rheoliadau?

John Griffiths: Yes. I am very keen to ensure that we get the correct balance here. There are major issues relating to welfare concerns, but there is also concern that legitimate dog-breeders, who understand the requirements of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and who observe them, may be adversely affected unintentionally. It is a matter of getting the balance right. I know that a lot of people feel very strongly that there is considerable bad practice in relation to dog-breeding in the UK. As far as Wales is concerned, we are very keen to make progress to ensure that that malpractice does not continue in the future.

John Griffiths: Gallaf. Rwy’n awyddus iawn i sicrhau ein bod yn cael y cydbwysedd cywir yma. Mae materion o bwys yn ymwneud â phryderon lles, ond mae yna hefyd bryder y gallai bridwyr cŵn dilys, sy’n deall gofynion Deddf Lles Anifeiliaid 2006 ac sy’n eu dilyn, yn cael eu heffeithio’n andwyol yn anfwriadol. Mae’n fater o gael y cydbwysedd yn iawn. Gwn fod llawer o bobl yn teimlo’n gryf iawn bod yna arfer gwael sylweddol mewn perthynas â bridio cŵn yn y DU. Cyn belled ag y mae Cymru yn y cwestiwn, rydym yn awyddus iawn i wneud cynnydd er mwyn sicrhau nad yw camymddwyn yn parhau yn y dyfodol.

Mohammad Asghar: The demise of the honey bee continues to be a cause of major concern in Wales. One in three mouthfuls of the food that we eat is dependent on pollination by bees, according to the British Beekeepers Association. Support to protect honey bees, such as through funding to the National Bee Unit, was announced during the third Assembly. Can the Minister provide an update on the support that he intends to offer bee inspectors and bee-keeping societies during the fourth Assembly? Also, is he concerned about the impact that declining bee numbers could have on our natural environment?

Mohammad Asghar: Mae tranc y wenynen fêl yn parhau i fod yn achos pryder mawr yng Nghymru. Mae un o bob tri o bob cegaid o’r bwyd yr ydym yn ei fwyta yn dibynnu ar beillio gan wenyn, yn ôl Cymdeithas Gwenynwyr Prydain. Cyhoeddwyd cymorth i ddiogelu gwenyn mêl, megis drwy gyllid i’r Uned Wenyn Genedlaethol, yn ystod y trydydd Cynulliad. A all y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y gefnogaeth y mae’n bwriadu cynnig i arolygwyr gwenyn a chymdeithasau cadw gwenyn yn ystod y Pedwerydd Cynulliad? Hefyd, a yw’n pryderu am yr effaith y gallai gostyngiad yn nifer y gwenyn ei gael ar ein hamgylchedd naturiol?

John Griffiths: As I said earlier, we have important policies in place on biodiversity. The Member is absolutely right to state the importance of bees to that biodiversity and to so much of our natural environment. I can confirm that work is ongoing with officials to address these issues, and I will write to the Member with an update.

John Griffiths: Fel y dywedais yn gynharach, mae gennym bolisïau pwysig yn eu lle ar fioamrywiaeth. Mae’r Aelod yn llygad ei le i ddweud pa mor bwysig yw gwenyn i’r fioamrywiaeth hwnnw ac i gymaint o’n hamgylchedd naturiol. Gallaf gadarnhau bod gwaith yn mynd rhagddo gyda swyddogion i fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn, a byddaf yn ysgrifennu at yr Aelod gyda’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf.

Lindsay Whittle: Minister, you may not be aware that the last bastion of greyhound racing in Wales is in my constituency—in Ystrad Mynach. I have never been to the dogs myself. I will pause there for any suitable remarks. [Laughter.] I like to give you the bullets. Minister, do you agree that if greyhounds in Wales are not afforded the same welfare protection that DEFRA has introduced in England, we will be at risk as a country of having lower animal welfare standards? Could you provide any details regarding when this Government will introduce regulations to protect these magnificent animals, particularly when they come to the end of their racing lives?

Lindsay Whittle: Weinidog, efallai na fyddwch yn ymwybodol fod cadarnle olaf o rasio milgwn yng Nghymru yn fy etholaeth i—yn Ystrad Mynach. Nid wyf erioed wedi bod i’r rasys fy hun. Oedaf yno am unrhyw sylwadau addas. [Chwerthin.] Rwy’n hoffi rhoi’r bwledi i chi. Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno, os nad yw milgwn yng Nghymru yn cael yr un amddiffyniad lles y mae DEFRA wedi ei gyflwyno yn Lloegr, byddwn mewn perygl fel gwlad o gael safonau is o ran lles anifeiliaid? A allech chi roi unrhyw fanylion ynghylch pryd y bydd y Llywodraeth hon yn cyflwyno rheoliadau i ddiogelu’r anifeiliaid gwych hyn, yn enwedig pan fyddant yn dod i ddiwedd eu hoes rasio?

2.00 p.m.

John Griffiths: I met representatives of the Greyhound Welfare Advisory Board a few weeks ago to discuss just these issues. I have asked officials to look at the situation in Wales. I think that you are right to say that that is the only greyhound racing track in your constituency, so in some ways, it is not an extensive issue across Wales. Nevertheless, there are issues that need to be addressed. We have to weigh in and balance the cost and benefits of the necessary work and regulations against other regulations and work that we could do to address other issues, such as the dog breeding issues that I mentioned earlier. However, I have asked officials to look at these matters.

John Griffiths: Cyfarfûm â chynrychiolwyr o Fwrdd Ymgynghorol Lles Milgwn ychydig wythnosau yn ôl i drafod y materion hynny. Rwyf wedi gofyn i swyddogion edrych ar y sefyllfa yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn meddwl eich bod yn gywir i ddweud mai dyna’r unig drac rasio milgwn yn eich etholaeth, felly mewn rhai ffyrdd, nid yw’n fater helaeth ar draws Cymru. Serch hynny, mae materion y mae angen rhoi sylw iddynt. Mae’n rhaid i ni bwyso a mesur a sicrhau cydbwysedd rhwng y gost a manteision y gwaith angenrheidiol a’r rheoliadau yn erbyn rheoliadau a gwaith eraill y gallem ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â materion eraill, megis y materion bridio cŵn a grybwyllais yn gynharach. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi gofyn i swyddogion edrych ar y materion hyn.

Llygredd

Pollution

7. Bethan Jenkins: A yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhan o unrhyw gynllun sy’n olrhain ac yn cofnodi effaith llygredd o ardal Port Talbot ar ardaloedd cyfagos. OAQ(4)0028(ESD)

7. Bethan Jenkins: Is the Welsh Government involved in any initiative that tracks and records the impact of pollution from the Port Talbot area on neighbouring localities. OAQ(4)0028(ESD)

John Griffiths: Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r diwydiant a’r rheolyddion i leihau llygredd ym Mhort Talbot. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn arwain nifer o fentrau i geisio darganfod beth sy’n achosi llygredd gan sicrhau bod mesurau’n cael eu targedu a’u bod yn effeithiol. Mae hyn yn diogelu’r amgylchedd ac iechyd pobl yn y tymor byr a’r hirdymor.

John Griffiths: My officials work closely with regulators and industry to reduce pollution in Port Talbot. Welsh Government leads on a number of initiatives that aim to identify sources of pollutants ensuring measures are targeted and effective. This protects the environment and human health in the short term and long term.

Bethan Jenkins: Mae fy nghwestiwn yn benodol am effaith Port Talbot ar ardaloedd eraill. Fy mhryder ar hyn o bryd yw bod llygredd o Bort Talbot yn effeithio ar ardaloedd megis cwm Llynfi yn ardal Ogwr. Mae cynllun i ddatblygu gorsaf biomas yng nghwm Llynfi. A fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried llygredd o Bort Talbot wrth ymwneud â’r cynllun biomas hwn?

Bethan Jenkins: My question was specifically about the effect of Port Talbot on other areas. My concern at the moment is that pollution from Port Talbot affects areas such the Llynfi valley in the Ogmore region. There is a scheme to develop a biomass station in the Llynfi valley. Will the Welsh Government take pollution from Port Talbot into consideration in engaging with this biomass scheme?

John Griffiths: The planning system, as it works under the ‘Planning Policy Wales’ and the local planning authorities, has the task of considering those factors so that any existing factors that will impact on proposed development should be taken into account in the planning process. There is a regulatory and permitting regime that applies, the requirements of which must be satisfied. A great deal of work has gone on in the Port Talbot area to understand the air pollution situation in the area and how it would best be remedied, and that work will continue.

John Griffiths: Mae gan y system gynllunio, fel y mae’n gweithio o dan ‘Polisi Cynllunio Cymru’ a’r awdurdodau cynllunio lleol, y dasg o ystyried y ffactorau hynny fel y dylai unrhyw ffactorau presennol a fydd yn effeithio ar ddatblygiad arfaethedig gael eu hystyried yn y broses gynllunio. Mae yna gyfundrefn reoleiddio a thrwyddedu sy’n gymwys ac mae’n rhaid i’r gofynion gael eu bodloni. Mae llawer iawn o waith wedi mynd ymlaen yn ardal Port Talbot i ddeall y sefyllfa llygredd aer yn yr ardal a’r ffordd orau i’w gywiro, a bydd y gwaith hwnnw’n parhau.

David Rees: Minister, as a life-long resident of Port Talbot and its environs, I must express my disappointment at the negativity of question 7, particularly as I have seen a vast improvement over the years, from the input of Tata Steel for example. I recognise that levels are breached still, and we must deal with that. I am pleased to hear you talk about looking at the cumulative effect. Therefore, I ask you to look at putting regulations in the planning Bill so that you ensure that the cumulative effect is taken as a requirement in any application with regard to air quality issues such as this.

David Rees: Weinidog, fel un o drigolion gydol oes Port Talbot a’i gyffiniau, rhaid i mi fynegi fy siom am y negyddiaeth yng nghwestiwn 7, yn enwedig gan fy mod wedi gweld gwelliant mawr dros y blynyddoedd, o fewnbwn Tata Steel, er enghraifft. Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod lefelau yn cael eu torri o hyd, a rhaid inni ddelio â hynny. Yr wyf yn falch eich clywed yn sôn am edrych ar yr effaith gronnol. Felly, gofynnaf ichi edrych ar roi rheoliadau yn y Bil cynllunio fel eich bod yn sicrhau bod effaith gronnol yn cael ei gynnwys fel gofyniad mewn unrhyw gais o ran materion ansawdd aer fel hyn.

John Griffiths: I am happy to agree that air quality is generally improving in Port Talbot, and valuable work is being done with industry locally, the local authority, regulators and Welsh Government officials. We have funded some of the work, and there is a lot of monitoring—a new monitor is about to be put in place. A lot of work is ongoing. We have involved expert groups, such as the University of the West of England, so there has been a considerable effort made. As you rightly say, industry has invested in the necessary work as well. I am happy to agree that further work is required, and we do need to understand cumulative impacts. Those are issues that we will have at the forefront of our minds as we go forward with new legislation and systems, including those relevant to the planning system.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn hapus i gytuno bod ansawdd aer yn gwella, ar y cyfan, ym Mhort Talbot, ac y mae gwaith gwerthfawr yn cael ei wneud gyda diwydiant yn lleol a chyda’r awdurdod lleol, rheoleiddwyr a swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru. Rydym wedi ariannu rhywfaint o’r gwaith, ac mae llawer o fonitro—mae monitor newydd ar fin cael ei rhoi ar waith. Mae llawer o waith yn mynd rhagddo. Rydym wedi cynnwys grwpiau arbenigol, megis Prifysgol Gorllewin Lloegr, felly gwnaed ymdrech sylweddol. Fel y dywedwch yn gywir, mae diwydiant wedi buddsoddi yn y gwaith angenrheidiol yn ogystal. Yr wyf yn hapus i gytuno bod angen gwaith pellach, ac mae angen i ni ddeall effeithiau cronnol. Mae’r rhain yn faterion y bydd gennym ar flaen ein meddyliau wrth inni symud ymlaen â deddfwriaeth a systemau newydd, gan gynnwys y rhai sy’n berthnasol i’r system gynllunio.

Suzy Davies: Weinidog, yr wyf yn falch o glywed eich sylwadau, oherwydd hoffwn longyfarch Cyngor Bwrdeistref Castell-nedd Port Talbot ar fynd i’r afael â llygredd awyr. Gyda monitro agos a gorfodi, nid yw Port Talbot bellach yn un o’r ardaloedd mwyaf llygredig yn y DU. Mewn gwirionedd, ddoe yr oedd ansawdd yr aer yn well ym Mhort Talbot nag a oedd yng Nghaerdydd—felly mae’n dweud ar wefan sy’n darparu data ar ansawdd aer.

Suzy Davies: Minister, I am glad to hear you remarks, because I would like to congratulate Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council on tackling air pollution. With close monitoring and enforcement, Port Talbot is no longer one of the most polluted areas of the UK. Indeed, yesterday, the air quality was better in Port Talbot than in Cardiff—that is what it says on a website that provides data on air quality.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. A question now, please.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Cwestiwn yn awr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Suzy Davies: Mae digon o waith i’w wneud, ond a ydych yn cytuno y dylem gydnabod y camau y mae wedi eu cymryd eisoes?

Suzy Davies: There is enough work to do, but do you agree that we should acknowledge the steps that it has already taken?

John Griffiths: I am happy to state once again that a lot of good work has gone on in the Port Talbot area by the local authority and other partners, including the Welsh Government. Considerable progress has been made, although further progress is necessary.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn hapus i ddatgan unwaith eto bod llawer o waith da wedi mynd ymlaen yn ardal Port Talbot gan yr awdurdod lleol a phartneriaid eraill, gan gynnwys Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae cynnydd sylweddol wedi cael ei wneud, er bod cynnydd pellach yn angenrheidiol.

Peter Black: I, too, wish to acknowledge the improvement in air quality in Port Talbot. However, in relation to future developments in that area with regard to power plants and other developments that might involve further emissions into the air, will you look at the planning requirements when you put together your planning Bill to try to enforce the most up-to-date carbon capture so that instrumentation and mechanisms are attached to those developments to ensure that it does not get any worse?

Peter Black: Yr wyf fi, hefyd, yn dymuno cydnabod y gwelliant mewn ansawdd aer ym Mhort Talbot. Fodd bynnag, mewn perthynas â datblygiadau yn y dyfodol yn yr ardal honno mewn perthynas â gorsafoedd ynni a datblygiadau eraill a allai olygu allyriadau ymhellach i mewn i’r awyr, a fyddwch yn edrych ar y gofynion cynllunio pan fyddwch yn rhoi at ei gilydd eich Bil cynllunio i geisio gorfodi’r dulliau diweddaraf o ddal carbon fel bod offeryniaeth a mecanweithiau ynghlwm wrth y datblygiadau hynny er mwyn sicrhau nad yw’n gwaethygu?

John Griffiths: Carbon capture and storage is an important part of the environmental improvement picture that we want to see going forward in Wales. My officials and many other partners are mindful of the advantages that that system will bring.

John Griffiths: Mae dal a storio carbon yn rhan bwysig o’r darlun gwelliant amgylcheddol yr ydym am ei weld yn y dyfodol yng Nghymru. Mae fy swyddogion a llawer o bartneriaid eraill yn ymwybodol o’r manteision a ddaw o dan y system honno.

Ysigo Hydrolig

Hydraulic Fracturing

8. Eluned Parrott: Beth yw polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar ysigo hydrolig. OAQ(4)0027(ESD)

8. Eluned Parrott: What is the Welsh Government’s policy on hydraulic fracturing. OAQ(4)0027(ESD)

John Griffiths: The Welsh Government is aware of concerns about the hydraulic fracturing process by which shale gas is extracted, particularly in relation to the impact on the environment, groundwater and water supplies. A precautionary approach should be taken to this type of development under the existing regulatory frameworks.

John Griffiths: Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwybodol o bryderon am y broses hollti hydrolig a ddefnyddir i dynnu nwy siâl, yn enwedig o ran yr effaith ar yr amgylchedd, dŵr daear a chyflenwadau dŵr. Dylai dull rhagofalus yn cael ei gymryd i’r math hwn o ddatblygiad o dan y fframweithiau rheoleiddio presennol.

Eluned Parrott: I am glad to hear you recognise the real concerns of residents in the Vale of Glamorgan at the moment over a drilling proposal that is going before the planning committee tomorrow, and which is slated for approval by the planning officers of Vale of Glamorgan Council. Do you recognise that this is a controversial issue about which public concerns are high, and will you commit to call in this proposal while a strong evidence-based policy is developed by this Government?

Eluned Parrott: Yr wyf yn falch eich clywed yn cydnabod pryderon gwirioneddol y trigolion ym Mro Morgannwg ar hyn o bryd dros gynnig drilio sy’n mynd gerbron y pwyllgor cynllunio yfory, a fydd yn cael ei gymeradwyo gan y swyddogion cynllunio Bro Cyngor Bro Morgannwg. A ydych yn cydnabod bod hwn yn fater dadleuol a bod pryderon y cyhoedd yn uchel, ac a ymrwymwch i dynnu’r cynnig hwn yn ei ôl tra bod polisi ar sail tystiolaeth gref yn cael ei ddatblygu gan y Llywodraeth hon?

John Griffiths: I cannot comment on any particular proposal given my planning responsibilities. The request for the application to be called in is under consideration and will be determined as soon as possible.

John Griffiths: Ni allaf roi sylwadau ar unrhyw gynnig penodol o ystyried fy nghyfrifoldebau cynllunio. Mae’r cais am dynnu’r cais yn ei ôl o dan ystyriaeth a bydd yn cael ei benderfynu cyn gynted ag y bo modd.

William Graham: There are clearly economic considerations in this matter. In particular, will you look again at providing stronger and clearer guidelines to local authorities on this contentious issue?

William Graham: Mae’n amlwg bod ystyriaethau economaidd yn y mater hwn. Yn benodol, a edrychwch eto ar ddarparu canllawiau cryfach a chliriach i awdurdodau lleol ar y mater dadleuol?

John Griffiths: I mentioned the precautionary approach and existing planning arrangements earlier, and we also have ‘Minerals Planning Policy Wales’ as a guide. We very much follow events and the UK Government’s work in this area, and we will keep in close contact with it. However, we believe that we have the necessary planning policy advice in place at the moment.

John Griffiths: Soniais am y dull rhagofalus a threfniadau cynllunio presennol yn gynharach, ac mae hefyd gennym ‘Polisi Cynllunio Mwynau Cymru’ fel canllaw. Rydym yn dilyn digwyddiadau a gwaith Llywodraeth y DU yn y maes hwn, a byddwn yn cadw mewn cysylltiad agos ag ef. Fodd bynnag, credwn fod gennym y cyngor polisi cynllunio angenrheidiol ar waith ar hyn o bryd.

Simon Thomas: Mae llawer o bobl yng Nghymru yn credu nad oes gan y Llywodraeth hon ddigon o bolisïau cadarn, pendant a chlir yn eu lle ar gyfer y broses arbennig hon. Felly, yr wyf yn erfyn ar y Gweinidog i gyflwyno cynigion newydd ar gyfer diwygio’r nodyn technegol ar fwynau fwynion neu gyflwyno nodyn technegol newydd yn benodol ar gyfer ysigo hydrolig. A wnaiff hefyd fanteisio ar y cyfle i ddweud wrth y Cynulliad lle mae’r tanwydd ffosil hwn yn ffitio i mewn i gynllunio ynni’r Llywodraeth yn gyffredinol?

Simon Thomas: Many people in Wales believe that this Government does not have enough policies in place that are robust, decisive and clear for this particular process. Therefore, I beseech him to introduce new proposals to amend the minerals technical advice note or introduce a new technical advice note specifically for hydraulic fracturing. Will he also take the opportunity to tell the Assembly where this fossil fuel fits in with the Government’s energy planning generally?

John Griffiths: As I mentioned earlier, there is a precautionary approach for this type of activity under existing guidance. The granting of a licence for the exploratory drilling of gas is a matter for the UK Government, although local planning authorities would have a role in the overall process. Regulation is carried out by the Environment Agency, the Health and Safety Executive and possibly by the Coal Authority, where coal is a factor, so there are systems in place. As I said, we follow events with great interest, such as the recent study in Blackpool. The UK Government is closely involved with all of that, and we liaise closely with it.

John Griffiths: Fel y soniais yn gynharach, mae dull gweithredu rhagofalus ar gyfer y math hwn o weithgaredd dan gyfarwyddyd presennol. Mae caniatáu trwydded ar gyfer drilio archwiliadol o nwy yn fater i Lywodraeth y DU, er y byddai gan awdurdodau cynllunio lleol rôl yn y broses gyffredinol. Mae rheoliad yn cael ei wneud gan Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, yr Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch ac o bosibl gan yr Awdurdod Glo, lle mae glo yn ffactor, felly mae systemau yn eu lle. Fel y dywedais, rydym yn dilyn digwyddiadau gyda diddordeb mawr, megis yr astudiaeth ddiweddar yn Blackpool. Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ymwneud yn agos â hynny i gyd, ac yr ydym yn cydweithio’n agos ag ef.

Blaenoriaethau

Priorities

9. Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu ei flaenoriaethau ar gyfer Rhanbarth Canol De Cymru. OAQ(4)0029(ESD)

9. Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister outline his priorities for the South Wales Central Region. OAQ(4)0029(ESD)

John Griffiths: I am committed to fulfilling, across Wales, the commitments that are set out for my portfolio in the programme for government. These include: putting sustainable development at the heart of government and integrating the way in which we manage and regulate our use of land, sea, air and water.

John Griffiths: Rwyf wedi ymrwymo i gyflawni, ar draws Cymru, yr ymrwymiadau sydd wedi’u nodi ar gyfer fy mhortffolio yn y rhaglen lywodraethu. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys: roi datblygu cynaliadwy wrth wraidd y llywodraeth ac integreiddio’r ffordd rydym yn rheoli ac yn rheoleiddio ein defnydd o dir, môr, aer a dŵr.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you for that answer, Minister. One of the things that sit in your portfolio, as we heard in the previous question, is the planning system, and many people who access the planning system, especially lay people, find it confusing, costly and complicated. What actions are you as Minister, with your officials, undertaking with local government to simplify the planning process in Wales and to make it a more affordable system, so that people who have genuine concerns can have them addressed?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Un o’r pethau sy’n eistedd yn eich portffolio, fel y clywsom yn y cwestiwn blaenorol, yw’r system gynllunio, ac mae llawer o bobl sy’n cael mynediad at y system gynllunio, yn enwedig pobl leyg, yn ei chael yn ddryslyd, yn gostus ac yn gymhleth. Pa gamau yr ydych chi fel Gweinidog, gyda’ch swyddogion, yn ymgymryd â llywodraeth leol i symleiddio’r broses gynllunio yng Nghymru ac i’w gwneud yn system fwy fforddiadwy, fel y gellir ymdrin ag unrhyw bryderon gwirioneddol sydd gan bobl?

John Griffiths: I agree that it is important that we move to a simplified and streamlined planning system. It will always be complex in certain respects, given the importance of planning to the use of land. For example, in Wales, there are many competing interests and views, and planning is extremely important to our quality of life as well as economic development. It will never be a simple exercise to set out planning policy and, of course, the legal picture is quite complicated. However, in as much as we can, I am committed to making the system as streamlined, simple and understandable as possible. We are working with local authorities at the moment. There is a sharing of capacity within local authorities, under the Minister for local government’s Simpson review, for example. Therefore, we are working to improve the system, and Planning Aid Wales is also an important agency in providing advice and information to people.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf yn cytuno ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn symud i system gynllunio symlach. Bydd bob amser yn gymhleth mewn rhai ffyrdd, gan gofio pwysigrwydd cynllunio i ddefnyddio tir. Er enghraifft, yng Nghymru, mae llawer o ddiddordebau a safbwyntiau sy’n cystadlu, ac y mae cynllunio yn hynod o bwysig i ansawdd ein bywyd yn ogystal â datblygu economaidd. Ni fydd byth yn ymarfer syml i nodi polisi cynllunio ac, wrth gwrs, mae’r darlun cyfreithiol yn eithaf cymhleth. Fodd bynnag, gymaint ag y gallwn, rwyf wedi ymrwymo i wneud y system mor syml a dealladwy â phosibl. Yr ydym yn gweithio gydag awdurdodau lleol ar hyn o bryd. Mae rhannu cynhwysedd o fewn awdurdodau lleol, o dan adolygiad Simpson y Gweinidog dros lywodraeth leol, er enghraifft. Felly, rydym yn gweithio i wella’r system, ac y mae Cymorth Cynllunio Cymru hefyd yn asiantaeth bwysig wrth ddarparu cyngor a gwybodaeth i bobl.

Vaughan Gething: Minister, do you share my extreme disappointment at the premature end to the feasibility study on Severn tidal power by the Conservative-led UK Government on what were expressly short-term considerations? Can you confirm whether the Welsh Government is having any continuing discussion with other parties regarding options to take advantage of what is a considerable renewable energy resource?

Vaughan Gething: Weinidog, a ydych yn rhannu fy siom eithafol ar y diwedd gynamserol i’r astudiaeth ddichonoldeb ar ynni’r llanw ar Afon Hafren gan Lywodraeth y DU dan arweiniad y Ceidwadwyr ar yr hyn a oedd yn ystyriaethau tymor byr yn benodol? A allwch gadarnhau a yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn cael unrhyw drafodaeth barhaus gyda phleidiau eraill ynghylch opsiynau i fanteisio ar yr hyn sydd yn adnodd ynni adnewyddadwy sylweddol?

John Griffiths: It is absolutely clear that the Severn estuary presents a great deal of potential for renewable energy generation. Given the many drivers for renewable energy in Wales and across the globe, it is very important that we use that resource to best effect. The Severn tidal power feasibility study reached the right conclusion at the time by looking at the state of public finances and stating that it was not sensible at that stage for Government money to be put into a Severn tidal scheme. However, we know that there are other interested parties. The private sector can see the potential, and if some of those other parties were to take a longer-term view, we would be very interested in hearing what they had to say and bring to the table.

John Griffiths: Mae’n gwbl glir bod aber Afon Hafren yn cyflwyno llawer o botensial ar gyfer cynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy. O ystyried y nifer o yrwyr ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru ac ar draws y byd, mae’n bwysig iawn ein bod yn defnyddio’r adnoddau yn y ffordd orau. Daeth astudiaeth ddichonoldeb ynni’r llanw ar Afon Hafren i’r casgliad cywir ar y pryd drwy edrych ar gyflwr cyllid cyhoeddus a dweud nad oedd yn synhwyrol bryd hynny i roi arian y Llywodraeth i mewn i gynllun llanw ar Afon Hafren. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom fod yna eraill sydd â diddordeb. Gall y sector preifat weld y potensial, ac os byddai rhai o’r pleidiau eraill hynny’n cymryd golwg tymor hwy, byddem â diddordeb mawr mewn clywed yr hyn a oedd ganddynt i’w ddweud ac i’w gyflwyno.

Leanne Wood: In this morning’s Enterprise and Business Committee meeting, we took evidence for our inquiry into the regeneration of town centres. One point that was made was the need for us to think about developing town centres for the day when oil becomes unaffordable, so that people are unable to travel to work or to shop. In other words, there is a real need to build up resilience for that eventuality. First of all, Minister, do you accept the predictions of peak oil? Do you accept that, when oil becomes unaffordable, huge problems will be caused for people? In my region, for example, it will make life difficult for people to travel from the Valleys down to Cardiff where most of the work is. If you accept that peak oil will cause a big problem for people in Wales, can you outline the Government’s strategy for dealing with it?

Leanne Wood: Yng nghyfarfod Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes y bore yma, cawsom dystiolaeth ar gyfer ein hymchwiliad i adfywio canol trefi. Un pwynt a wnaed oedd yr angen i ni feddwl am ddatblygu canol trefi ar gyfer y diwrnod pan ddaw’r olew yn anfforddiadwy, fel nad yw pobl yn gallu teithio i’r gwaith neu i siopa. Mewn geiriau eraill, mae gwir angen adeiladu gwydnwch ar gyfer y posibilrwydd hwnnw. Yn gyntaf oll, Weinidog, a ydych yn derbyn y rhagfynegiadau ar olew brig? A dderbyniwch, pan ddaw’r olew yn anfforddiadwy, y bydd yn achosi problemau enfawr i bobl? Yn fy rhanbarth i, er enghraifft, bydd yn gwneud bywyd yn anodd i bobl deithio o’r Cymoedd i lawr i Gaerdydd lle mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r gwaith. Os ydych yn derbyn y bydd olew brig yn achosi problem fawr i bobl yng Nghymru, a allwch amlinellu strategaeth y Llywodraeth ar gyfer ymdrin ag ef?

John Griffiths: It is absolutely clear that we need to break our dependence on fossil fuel, including oil, for obvious reasons relating to climate change and dwindling supplies. Therefore, I very much agree that we need to understand what the future holds in that regard and to address the issues that arise.

John Griffiths: Mae’n gwbl glir bod angen i ni dorri ein dibyniaeth ar danwydd ffosil, gan gynnwys olew, am resymau amlwg yn ymwneud â newid yn yr hinsawdd a chyflenwadau yn lleihau. Felly, yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr fod angen i ni ddeall beth fydd yn digwydd yn y dyfodol yn y cyswllt hwnnw ac i fynd i’r afael â’r materion sy’n codi.

As a Welsh Government, we have important strategies in place regarding the regeneration of our town centres and dealing with transport issues. Colleagues, for example, are looking at proposals for the metro system in the Cardiff and Valleys area. Therefore, there is a lot of work ongoing within the Welsh Government that understands the issues that the Member raises that will, hopefully, result in some answers.

Fel Llywodraeth Cymru, mae gennym strategaethau pwysig ar waith ynghylch adfywio canol ein trefi ac ymdrin â materion cludiant. Mae cydweithwyr, er enghraifft, yn edrych ar gynigion ar gyfer y system metro yn ardal Caerdydd a’r Cymoedd. Felly, mae llawer o waith parhaus o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru sy’n deall y materion y mae’r Aelod yn eu codi a fydd, gobeithio, yn arwain at rai atebion.

2.15 p.m.

Prosiectau Ynni Cynaliadwy

Sustainable Energy Projects

10. Alun Ffred Jones: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’r rhwydwaith drydan ynglŷn â chysylltu prosiectau ynni cynaliadwy i’r Grid. OAQ(4)0038(ESD)

10. Alun Ffred Jones: What discussions has the Minister had with the electricity network about connecting sustainable energy projects to the Grid. OAQ(4)0038(ESD)

John Griffiths: Cynhelir trafodaethau rhwng Gweinidogion a swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru a’r Grid Cenedlaethol a gweithredwyr rhwydwaith rhanbarthol yn rheolaidd ynghylch defnyddio dulliau priodol a llai amlwg i gysylltu prosiectau ynni cynaliadwy â’r grid.

John Griffiths: Welsh Government Ministers and officials hold regular discussions with National Grid and district network operators regarding connecting sustainable energy projects to the grid by using appropriate and less obtrusive methods.

Alun Ffred Jones: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, ond nid sut y maent yn edrych yw’r broblem ond cost aruthrol cysylltu rhai o’r prosiectau hyn gyda’r grid. Mae gan y cwmnïau rhanbarthol fonopoli, fwy neu lai, ar y gwaith hwn, ac mae’r costau mor uchel fel eu bod yn gwneud y cynlluniau hyn yn anghynaliadwy ac anfforddiadwy. O gofio pwysigrwydd eu cyfraniad o ran ynni ac anghenion trydan yn y dyfodol, beth yr ydych yn bwriadu ei wneud i sicrhau bod y cwmnïau hyn yn rhoi gwerth am arian wrth gysylltu’r cynlluniau hyn â’r Grid Cenedlaethol?

Alun Ffred Jones: Thank you for that answer, but how they look is not the problem; the problem is the huge cost of linking some of these projects to the grid. The regional companies have a monopoly, more or less, on the work, and the costs are so high that these schemes become unsustainable and unaffordable. Given the importance of their contribution in terms of energy and future demand for electricity, what do you intend to do to ensure that these companies provide value for money in connecting these schemes with the National Grid?

John Griffiths: I, the First Minister and officials have regular meetings with the energy companies and the grid to discuss a whole range of issues. We will be bringing forward an energy policy statement later this year, which will address a whole gamut of issues around the energy situation in Wales. We also have some important help and support available to those who wish to bring forward renewable energy projects on different scales. Therefore, there is a lot of work going on. I understand that these are very difficult issues that we need to continue to work towards solving.

John Griffiths: Yr wyf fi, y Prif Weinidog a swyddogion yn cael cyfarfodydd rheolaidd gyda’r cwmnïau ynni a’r grid i drafod ystod eang o faterion. Byddwn yn cyflwyno datganiad polisi ynni yn ddiweddarach eleni, a fydd yn mynd i’r afael ag ystod eang o faterion yn ymwneud â’r sefyllfa ynni yng Nghymru. Mae gennym hefyd rywfaint o gymorth pwysig a chefnogaeth sydd ar gael i’r rhai sy’n dymuno cyflwyno prosiectau ynni adnewyddadwy ar wahanol raddfeydd. Felly, mae llawer o waith yn mynd ymlaen. Yr wyf yn deall bod y rhain yn faterion anodd iawn y mae angen i ni barhau i weithio tuag at ddatrys.

Suzy Davies: Minister, on the first page of the most recent edition of its community magazine, National Grid refers to ministerial statements on

Suzy Davies: Weinidog, ar dudalen gyntaf y rhifyn diweddaraf o’i gylchgrawn cymunedol, mae’r Grid Cenedlaethol yn cyfeirio at ddatganiadau gweinidogol ar

‘generation targets set out in TAN 8 as upper limits’.

dargedau cynhyrchu a nodir yn TAN 8 fel terfynau uchaf.

The generation targets, of course, are not the same as the capacity figures, which the First Minister identified as upper limits. National Grid goes on to say that

Nid yw’r targedau cynhyrchu, wrth gwrs, yr un peth â’r ffigurau capasiti, a nododd y Prif Weinidog fel terfynau uchaf. Mae’r Grid Cenedlaethol yn mynd ymlaen i ddweud

‘we will continue to liaise with the Welsh Government and DECC to understand what those statements mean’.

byddwn yn parhau i gysylltu â Llywodraeth Cymru a DECC i ddeall beth mae’r datganiadau hynny yn golygu.

Would you accept, Minister, that it is not just National Grid, but also lobby groups and planning authorities that remain lost as to what is expected of them as a result of the hopeless confusion surrounding TAN 8?

A fyddech yn derbyn, Weinidog, nad y Grid Cenedlaethol yn unig, ond hefyd grwpiau lobïo ac awdurdodau cynllunio sy’n parhau yn y dirgel o ran yr hyn a ddisgwylir ganddynt yn sgil y dryswch anobeithiol o amgylch TAN 8?

John Griffiths: No, I would not accept that. The First Minister made a statement that was quite clear about setting maximum levels to the output from the strategic search areas within TAN 8. I then wrote to planning authorities and stakeholders in Wales clarifying what those maximum outputs were. There is much else around energy policy in Wales that makes the position clear.

John Griffiths: Na, ni fyddwn yn derbyn hynny. Gwnaeth y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad a oedd yn eithaf clir ynglŷn â gosod y lefelau uchaf i’r allbwn o’r ardaloedd chwilio strategol o fewn TAN 8. Yna ysgrifennais at awdurdodau a rhanddeiliaid yng Nghymru gan egluro beth oedd yr allbynnau uchafswm hynny. Mae llawer o bethau eraill o ran polisi ynni yng Nghymru sy’n gwneud y sefyllfa yn glir.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth
Questions to the Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage

Adfywio Canol Trefi

Regeneration of Town Centres

1. Joyce Watson: Beth yw polisïau Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer adfywio canol trefi yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru. OAQ(4)0025(HRH)

1. Joyce Watson: What are the Welsh Government’s policies for regenerating town centres in Mid and West Wales. OAQ(4)0025(HRH)

The Minister for Housing, Regeneration and Heritage (Huw Lewis): I thank the Member for Mid and West Wales for that question. Our key policy focuses on regeneration areas. As an example, Aberystwyth is a regeneration area, and a £10.3 million package was announced by the Welsh Government in March 2010. Emphasis has been placed on creating a vibrant promenade and a thriving town centre, providing quality homes for local people and improving accessibility.

Y Gweinidog Tai, Adfywio a Threftadaeth (Huw Lewis): Diolch i’r Aelod dros Ganolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae ein polisi allweddol yn canolbwyntio ar ardaloedd adfywio. Fel enghraifft, mae Aberystwyth yn ardal adfywio, a chyhoeddwyd pecyn gwerth £10 miliwn gan Lywodraeth Cymru ym mis Mawrth 2010. Rhoddwyd pwyslais ar greu promenâd bywiog a canol tref ffyniannus, gan ddarparu cartrefi o safon i bobl leol a gwella hygyrchedd.

Joyce Watson: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I would also like to welcome the new round of funding for the western Valleys programme, which will deliver a further £15,000 for Cross Hands, £325,000 for Ammanford and £50,000 for Ystradgynlais. Will you confirm, Minister, that this Labour Government will maintain its commitment to developing the western Valleys area for the duration of this Assembly?

Joyce Watson: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Hoffwn hefyd groesawu’r cyllid ar gyfer rhaglen y Cymoedd gorllewinol, a fydd yn darparu £15,000 yn ychwanegol ar gyfer Cross Hands, £325,000 ar gyfer Rhydaman a £50,000 ar gyfer Ystradgynlais. A wnewch chi gadarnhau, Weinidog, y bydd y Llywodraeth Lafur hon yn cynnal ei hymrwymiad i ddatblygu ardal y Cymoedd gorllewinol drwy gydol y Cynulliad hwn?

Huw Lewis: Yes, I will. I have already made it clear in previous statements that current regeneration commitments to areas like the western Valleys will be honoured through the course of this Assembly term. The western Valleys regeneration area, although still a relatively young partnership, has been active and, in two of the examples that you mentioned there, over £1 million has already been committed in Ammanford and about £0.5 million in Ystradgynlais. Therefore, there are a lot of hard-working people there pulling together. Our commitment to the western Valleys will be honoured.

Huw Lewis: Gwnaf. Rwyf eisoes wedi ei gwneud yn glir mewn datganiadau blaenorol y bydd ymrwymiadau adfywio cyfredol i ardaloedd fel y Cymoedd gorllewinol yn cael eu hanrhydeddu drwy gydol tymor y Cynulliad hwn. Mae ardal adfywio y Cymoedd gorllewinol, er yn dal yn bartneriaeth gymharol ifanc, wedi bod yn weithgar ac, mewn dwy o’r enghreifftiau a grybwyllwyd gennych, mae mwy na £1 miliwn eisoes wedi’i ymrwymo yn Rhydaman a thua £0.5 miliwn yn Ystradgynlais. Felly, mae llawer o bobl yn gweithio’n galed yno yn cyd-dynnu. Bydd ein hymrwymiad i’r Cymoedd gorllewinol yn cael ei anrhydeddu.

Russell George: One of the biggest issues facing Newtown is that retail premises are regularly closed and remain closed, which does not help the local economy and resonates badly with local people and visitors to the town. One solution that I am championing with local landlords is pop-up retail, which is more commonly known in this country as pop-up shops. Could the Minister and his officials explore this further, perhaps with his colleague the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science, as I believe that Government can help create the knowledge base and environment for business start-ups to view short-term renting as a viable interim model?

Russell George: Un o’r materion mwyaf sy’n wynebu’r Drenewydd yw bod safleoedd manwerthu yn cau yn rheolaidd ac yn parhau ar gau, nad yw’n helpu’r economi leol nac wrth fodd y bobl leol ac ymwelwyr â’r dref. Un ateb yr wyf yn ei hyrwyddo gyda landlordiaid lleol yw manwerthu ‘pop-up’, sy’n cael ei adnabod yn fwy cyffredin yn y wlad hon fel siopau ‘pop-up’. A allai’r Gweinidog a’i swyddogion ymchwilio i hyn ymhellach, efallai gyda’i gydweithiwr y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth, gan fy mod yn credu y gall y Llywodraeth helpu i greu’r sylfaen wybodaeth a’r amgylchedd ar gyfer busnesau newydd i weld rhentu tymor byr fel model interim hyfyw?

Huw Lewis: That is an interim solution there that has some viability, and it has been road-tested in other parts of the UK. There is a discussion to be had about pop-up retail; it is part of the menu of options that I will be taking forward with regard to the evolution of our regeneration programme during this Assembly term and part of the discussions that can be had with local authorities regarding what fits best in particular communities. We must face a long-term shift with regard to the public’s retail habits, and while we cope with that rapidly changing agenda, I agree that pop-up retail has a role to play in some places.

Huw Lewis: Mae hwnnw’n ateb dros dro yno sydd â rhyw hyfywedd, ac mae wedi cael ei brofi mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU. Mae trafodaeth i’w gael am fanwerthu ‘pop-up’; mae’n rhan o ddewislen o opsiynau y byddaf yn symud ymlaen o ran esblygiad ein rhaglen adfywio yn ystod y tymor hwn o’r Cynulliad a rhan o’r trafodaethau y gellir eu cael gydag awdurdodau lleol ynghylch beth sy’n cyd-fynd orau mewn cymunedau penodol. Mae’n rhaid i ni wynebu newid tymor-hir o ran arferion manwerthu’r cyhoedd, ac er ein bod yn ymdopi â’r agenda hwnnw sy’n newid yn gyflym, yr wyf yn cytuno bod gan fanwerthu ‘pop-up’ rôl i’w chwarae mewn rhai mannau.

Simon Thomas: Un o’r pethau mwyaf llwyddiannus ar gyfer nifer o drefi yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru yw twristiaeth dreftadaeth, sy’n bwysig iawn, yn enwedig yn y trefi marchnad. Mae gan y Gweinidog hwn gyfrifoldeb am dreftadaeth, ac mae gan y Gweinidog sydd nesaf ato gyfrifoldeb am dwristiaeth. Pa drafodaethau sydd wedi’u cynnal o fewn y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod ein trefi marchnad, yn enwedig yn y rhanbarth hwn, yn gallu elwa o dwristiaeth dreftadaeth ac o bresenoldeb cryf ar y we i ddenu ymwelwyr newydd?

Simon Thomas: One of the most successful initiatives in a number of towns in Mid and West Wales is heritage tourism, which is very important, particularly in the market towns. This Minister has responsibility for heritage, and the Minister next to him has the responsibility for tourism. What discussions have been held within Government to ensure that our market towns, particularly in this region, are able to profit from heritage tourism and a strong web presence to attract new visitors?

Huw Lewis: Thank you for that question. One of the first instructions that I gave to officials on taking up this wide-ranging portfolio was that the various parts of the portfolio should pull together as one. I very much see the regeneration aspect of my portfolio as being at one, as far as is possible, with our heritage commitments up and down the country. A lot of towns, and smaller towns in particular, across Wales, have done a great deal of heavy lifting of their own accord, due to active citizenry, good ideas and commitment over time, and we want to be there by their side. There are no exceptions with regard to where the Welsh Government wants to commit with regard to assisting and listening to good ideas. That is the focus inside regeneration areas, and is a primary concern with regard to our budgetary commitments and so on. However, that does not mean that smaller market towns throughout Mid and West Wales and elsewhere in the country could not benefit from co-working with us. We stand ready to assist them.

Huw Lewis: Diolch am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Un o’r cyfarwyddiadau cyntaf a roddais i swyddogion ar gymryd i fyny’r portffolio eang hwn oedd y dylai gwahanol rannau o’r portffolio dynnu gyda’i gilydd fel un. Rwy’n gweld yn fawr agwedd adfywio fy mhortffolio gyfystyr, cyn belled ag sy’n bosibl, â’n hymrwymiadau treftadaeth ar hyd a lled y wlad. Mae llawer o drefi, a threfi llai yn arbennig, ar draws Cymru, wedi gwneud llawer iawn o godi pwysau trwm ohonynt eu hunain, oherwydd dinasyddion gweithgar, syniadau da ac ymroddiad dros amser, ac rydym am fod yno wrth eu hochr. Nid oes unrhyw eithriadau o ran ble mae Llywodraeth Cymru am ymrwymo gyda golwg ar gynorthwyo a gwrando ar syniadau da. Dyna’r ffocws y tu mewn i ardaloedd adfywio, ac yn bryder sylfaenol o ran ein hymrwymiadau cyllidebol ac yn y blaen. Fodd bynnag, nid yw hynny’n golygu na allai trefi marchnad llai ar draws Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru ac mewn mannau eraill yn y wlad elwa o weithio gyda ni ar y cyd. Rydym yn barod i helpu.

Tai Fforddiadwy

Affordable Housing

2. Keith Davies: Beth yw cynlluniau’r Gweinidog ar gyfer tai fforddiadwy. OAQ(4)0036(HRH)

2. Keith Davies: What are the Minister’s plans for affordable housing. OAQ(4)0036(HRH)

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for Llanelli for that question. We are actively looking at new ways of increasing the supply of affordable housing at a time of considerable budgetary pressure. We recently launched the Welsh housing partnership and I am looking at co-operative housing as a feasible alternative for the future for Wales. Our stated commitment to bringing empty properties back into use will also be part of this agenda.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Lanelli am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Rydym wrthi’n edrych ar ffyrdd newydd o gynyddu’r cyflenwad o dai fforddiadwy yn ystod cyfnod o bwysau cyllidebol sylweddol. Yn ddiweddar, lansiom bartneriaeth tai Cymru, ac rwy’n edrych ar dai cydweithredol fel dewis arall ymarferol ar gyfer y dyfodol i Gymru. Bydd ein hymrwymiad i ddod ag eiddo gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd hefyd yn rhan o’r agenda hon.

Keith Davies: Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Dangoswyd ym maniffesto 2011 Llafur fod angen mwy o dai fforddiadwy. Er hynny, mae nifer fawr o bobl yn ardal Llanelli yn dioddef oherwydd nad ydynt yn gallu fforddio tai o safon. Mae ffigurau cynllun datblygu lleol sir Gâr yn dangos bod y cyngor yn cynllunio ar gyfer adeiladu 6,500 o dai. Faint ohonynt ddylai fod yn dai fforddiadwy?

Keith Davies: Thank you for that answer, Minister. The 2011 Labour manifesto demonstrated that there is a need for more affordable housing. Despite that, a number of people in the Llanelli area are suffering because they cannot afford quality housing. The Carmarthenshire local development plan figures show that the council is planning to build 6,500 houses. How many of those should be affordable?

Huw Lewis: Thank you for that question. The local development plan for Carmarthenshire is, of course, a matter for Carmarthenshire. I know that it is looking at options including, for instance, in terms of affordability, a local authority mortgage scheme. My officials are working with the council on that.

Huw Lewis: Diolch am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae’r cynllun datblygu lleol ar gyfer Sir Gaerfyrddin, wrth gwrs, yn fater ar gyfer Sir Gaerfyrddin. Gwn ei fod yn edrych ar opsiynau gan gynnwys, er enghraifft, o ran fforddiadwyedd, cynllun morgais awdurdod lleol. Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio gyda’r cyngor ar hynny.

It is for local authorities to consider how they can maximise the delivery of affordable housing. They have to take into account the overall level of provision and they have to set appropriate thresholds while not placing an undue burden on the economic viability of the development. The details are for Carmarthenshire to work out, as I say. Purely by way of example, a typical private development in our experience would have between 15 and 40 per cent affordable housing, depending on the needs of the community. I am happy to work alongside councils on that, and my officials will of course continue to work on the considerable issues that Carmarthenshire County Council is grappling with. The council recognises that there is a shortage of affordable housing within that community, and I concur with it on that.

Mater i awdurdodau lleol yw ystyried sut y gallant wneud y gorau o ddarparu tai fforddiadwy. Mae’n rhaid iddynt gymryd i ystyriaeth lefel gyffredinol y ddarpariaeth ac mae’n rhaid iddynt osod trothwyon priodol heb roi baich rhy drwm ar hyfywedd economaidd y datblygiad. Mae’r manylion i Sir Gaerfyrddin i’w gweithio allan, fel rwy’n dweud. Fel enghraifft yn unig, byddai gan ddatblygiad preifat nodweddiadol, o’n profiad ni, rhwng 15 a 40 y cant o dai fforddiadwy, yn dibynnu ar anghenion y gymuned. Yr wyf yn hapus i weithio ochr yn ochr â chynghorau ar hynny, a bydd fy swyddogion, wrth gwrs, yn parhau i weithio ar y materion sylweddol y mae Cyngor Sir Caerfyrddin yn mynd i’r afael â hwy. Mae’r cyngor yn cydnabod bod prinder tai fforddiadwy o fewn y gymuned honno, ac yr wyf yn cytuno ag ef ar hynny.

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Yn eich rhaglen ar gyfer llywodraethu, a gyhoeddwyd ddoe, nid oedd targed ar gyfer nifer yr unedau tai ffordiadwy sydd angen eu hadeiladu yng Nghymru bob blwyddyn. Yn ddiddorol iawn, mewn ateb i gwestiwn yn y Siambr ddoe, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog:

The Leader of Plaid Cymru (Ieuan Wyn Jones): In your programme for government, published yesterday, there was no target set for the number of affordable housing units needed in Wales per annum. However, interestingly, in a response to a question in the Chamber yesterday, the First Minister said:

‘O ran tai, gwyddom fod angen adeiladu 7,000 yn fwy o dai yng Nghymru bob blwyddyn er mwyn diwallu’r galw’.

‘In terms of housing, we know that we need to build an additional 7,000 homes in Wales per annum in order to meet the need’.

Ai dyna darged y Llywodraeth?

Is that the Government’s target?

Huw Lewis: The programme for government speaks for itself. It is an ambitious document, written to cope with tough times. Targets within portfolio areas, mine included, may well follow from policy development as we work through this Assembly term. However, if we continue to regard the solution to all ills as the supply of affordable housing within the criteria that we have traditionally used—in other words, an increase in supply of social housing for rent—and use that alone as an indicator of success, we will, in very changed times, be judged by the Welsh people to have failed. Affordability now is a much bigger agenda. It is about people in every form of housing, whether it is owner-occupation, the private rented sector, part ownership or, indeed, social housing for rent. We need to have an eye to increasing the supply of all forms of tenure with affordability at the front of our minds. So, yes, social housing for rent is at the centre of my concerns, but the agenda is much wider now in these more difficult economic times than it may have been just a short while ago.

Huw Lewis: Mae’r rhaglen lywodraethu yn siarad drosto’i hun. Mae’n ddogfen uchelgeisiol, a ysgrifennwyd i ymdopi â chyfnodau anodd. Gall dargedau o fewn meysydd portffolio, gan gynnwys fy un i, ddilyn o ddatblygu polisi wrth i ni weithio drwy’r tymor Cynulliad hwn. Fodd bynnag, os byddwn yn parhau i ystyried mai’r ateb i bob problem yw cyflenwad o dai fforddiadwy o fewn y meini prawf a ddefnyddiwyd gennym yn draddodiadol—mewn geiriau eraill, cynnydd yn y cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol i’w rhentu—a defnyddio hwnnw ar ei ben ei hun fel dangosydd o lwyddiant, barn Pobl Cymru, mewn cyfnod o newid sylweddol, fydd ein bod wedi methu. Mae fforddiadwyedd yn awr yn agenda llawer mwy. Mae’n ymwneud â phobl mewn pob math o dai, pa un ai yw’n berchen-feddiannaeth, y sector rhentu preifat, rhan berchnogaeth neu, yn wir, dai cymdeithasol ar rent. Mae angen i ni gael golwg ar gynyddu’r cyflenwad o bob math o ddaliadaeth, gyda fforddiadwyedd ar flaen ein meddyliau. Felly, mae tai cymdeithasol ar rent wrth wraidd fy mhryderon, ond mae’r agenda yn llawer ehangach yn awr yn y cyfnod economaidd anoddach hwn nag yr oedd, efallai, dim ond ychydig amser yn ôl.

Jenny Rathbone: Building more affordable homes is one way of resolving the acute shortage of housing; particularly in Cardiff, I am fully aware of all that. However, what about good housing management as a way of tackling the availability of affordable homes? For example, you could tackle tenancy fraud, where people are illegally sub-letting, or getting social landlords outwith the council to collaborate on having a common housing list. Could you tell us about that?

Jenny Rathbone: Mae adeiladu rhagor o dai fforddiadwy yn un ffordd o ddatrys y prinder dybryd o dai; yn enwedig yng Nghaerdydd, yr wyf yn gwbl ymwybodol o hynny i gyd. Fodd bynnag, beth am reolaeth dda o dai fel ffordd o fynd i’r afael ag argaeledd tai fforddiadwy? Er enghraifft, gallech fynd i’r afael â thwyll tenantiaeth, lle mae pobl yn is-osod yn anghyfreithlon, neu gael landlordiaid cymdeithasol y tu allan i’r cyngor i gydweithio ar gael rhestr tai cyffredin. A allech ddweud wrthym am hynny?

Huw Lewis: There is potentially an exciting agenda here, both for co-working between local authorities and social landlords, and for each of those types of organisation to be working in their communities in various ways together or apart. That is an agenda that we can talk about, particularly as we work through the process leading up to the new housing Bill, looking at how we ensure that, across all tenures—but particularly the private rented sector—we have good management of decent housing stock, with a certain minimum standard required of all the social actors in that particular drama. The expertise that has been built up in our registered social landlords, given their steep learning curve over the last few years, as well as the expertise in our local authorities, will be critical to this. However, we can look forward to a future where, if we get that community management of community assets right, then we can look forward to a much better future in terms of housing quality, and that has spin-offs in terms of supply and affordability as well.

Huw Lewis: Mae potensial am agenda cyffrous yma, ar gyfer cydweithio rhwng awdurdodau lleol a landlordiaid cymdeithasol, ac i bob un o’r mathau hynny o sefydliad i fod yn gweithio yn eu cymunedau mewn ffyrdd amrywiol gyda’i gilydd neu ar wahân. Mae hynny yn agenda y gallwn ni siarad amdano, yn enwedig wrth i ni weithio drwy’r broses yn arwain at y Bil tai newydd, yn edrych ar sut yr ydym yn sicrhau, ar draws pob deiliadaeth—ond yn enwedig y sector rentu preifat—bod gennym reolaeth dda o dai stoc dda, gyda safon ofynnol benodol o’r holl actorion cymdeithasol yn y ddrama arbennig honno. Bydd yr arbenigedd sydd wedi cael ei adeiladu yn ein landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig, o ystyried y broses ddysgu fawr dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, yn ogystal â’r arbenigedd yn ein hawdurdodau lleol, yn allweddol i hyn. Fodd bynnag, gallwn edrych ymlaen at ddyfodol lle, os ydym yn sicrhau rheolaeth gymunedol dda o asedau cymunedol, yna gallwn edrych ymlaen at ddyfodol llawer gwell o ran ansawdd tai, ac mae gan hynny sgil-gynhyrchion o ran cyflenwad a fforddiadwyedd yn ogystal.

2.30 p.m.

Peter Black: Minister, I wholeheartedly concur with your ambition to increase the supply of affordable housing, and, by that, I mean all sorts of housing, not just that for rent in the non-market sector. To do that, you will need more resources in that sector. Can you tell me what plans you have to bring additional resources into that sector to provide the houses that you have the ambition to supply?

Peter Black: Weinidog, yr wyf yn llwyr gytuno â’ch uchelgais i gynyddu’r cyflenwad o dai fforddiadwy, ac, o ran hynny, yr wyf yn golygu pob math o dai, nid yn unig y rhai sydd i’w rhentu yn y sector nad ydynt ar gyfer y farchnad. I wneud hynny, bydd angen arnoch fwy o adnoddau yn y sector hwnnw. A allwch ddweud wrthyf ba gynlluniau sydd gennych i ddod ag adnoddau ychwanegol i mewn i’r sector i ddarparu’r tai y mae gennych uchelgais eu cyflenwi?

Huw Lewis: I look forward to Peter lobbying his colleagues in Government in Westminster for more resources for the Assembly with regard to the supply of affordable housing. That would be helpful, and I would look forward to it, but we are where we are. We have to innovate here. Peter, as a close observer of these matters, will have noted the launch of the Welsh housing partnership just a few days ago, which signalled a new departure in terms of bringing private financial partners, essentially, into the picture with regard to increasing the number of homes for intermediate rent. However, there are a number of potentially viable models here and a number of partners who will be approached and spoken with, and that, together with an imaginative and determined commitment to release publicly-owned land as an asset for the community to ensure that the value of land is part of the equation here, as well as a commitment to innovative flows of finance, should considerably boost or multiply the effect of the direct social housing grant, for instance, that we have available to us.

Huw Lewis: Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at weld Peter yn lobïo ei gydweithwyr yn y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan am fwy o adnoddau i’r Cynulliad o ran y cyflenwad o dai fforddiadwy. Byddai hynny’n ddefnyddiol, a byddwn yn edrych ymlaen ato, ond yr ydym le’r ydym. Mae’n rhaid i ni arloesi yma. Bydd Peter, fel sylwedydd agos o’r materion hyn, wedi nodi lansio’r bartneriaeth tai Cymru ychydig ddiwrnodau yn ôl, a oedd yn arwydd o gwyro newydd o ran dod â phartneriaid ariannol preifat, yn ei hanfod, i mewn i’r darlun o ran cynyddu’r nifer y cartrefi rhent canolradd. Fodd bynnag, ceir nifer o fodelau hyfyw posibl yma a nifer o bartneriaid y byddwn yn cysylltu â hwy ac yn siarad â hwy, a bydd hynny, ynghyd ag ymrwymiad llawn dychymyg a phenderfynol o ryddhau tir sy’n eiddo i’r cyhoedd fel ased i’r gymuned er mwyn sicrhau bod gwerth y tir yn rhan o’r hafaliad yma, yn ogystal ag ymrwymiad i lifoedd arloesol o gyllid, yn rhoi hwb sylweddol neu’n lluosi effaith y grant tai cymdeithasol uniongyrchol, er enghraifft, sydd ar gael i ni.

Peter Black: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I very much welcome the Welsh housing partnership, which, I understand, has a budget of around £3 million. Your Government, and the previous Government, have had a commitment for some time to release publicly-owned land for housing, so that is already factored in. In terms of the Welsh housing investment trust, which, at one stage, projected bringing £100 million into the housing sector for non-market sector housing, what is the current progress on that, and when do you envisage being able to make a statement to Plenary as to how that will be delivered?

Peter Black: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Croesawaf yn fawr iawn partneriaeth tai Cymru, sydd, yr wyf yn deall, â chyllideb o tua £3 miliwn. Mae eich Llywodraeth, a’r Llywodraeth flaenorol, wedi ymrwymo ers peth amser i ryddhau tir cyhoeddus ar gyfer tai, felly mae hwnnw eisoes yn cael ei hystyried. O ran ymddiriedolaeth buddsoddi tai Cymru, a oedd, ar un adeg, yn rhagweld dod â £100 miliwn i’r sector tai ar gyfer y sector tai nad ydynt ar gyfer y farchnad, beth yw’r cynnydd presennol ar hynny, a phryd ydych yn rhagweld y gallwch wneud datganiad i’r Cyfarfod Llawn ynglŷn â sut fydd yn cael ei gyflwyno?

Huw Lewis: The Welsh housing investment trust—I inherited this situation, as you will be aware—has morphed into the Welsh housing partnership, although I regard the Welsh housing partnership as a jumping-off point. You are right to say that it has a budget of a few million pounds—it is not a cure for all ills; it is a beginning. However, what it demonstrates is that such partnerships can be entered into with confidence by the potential partners—the Principality Building Society in this case, plus five of our registered social landlords, and we have demonstrated through that, to potential partners in the housing sector and in the financial sector, that the Welsh Government is serious about such models, and is willing to talk. We are already engaged in tentative discussions with all sorts of partners, whose identity, you will understand, I cannot reveal at the moment. The Welsh housing partnership is very much a jumping-off point in terms of that commitment to innovative financial flows.

Huw Lewis: Mae ymddiriedolaeth buddsoddi tai Cymru—bu i mi etifeddu’r sefyllfa hon, fel y byddwch yn ymwybodol—wedi diflannu i mewn i bartneriaeth tai Cymru, er fy mod yn ystyried partneriaeth tai Cymru fel man cychwyn. Yr ydych yn iawn i ddweud bod ganddo gyllideb o ychydig o filiynau o bunnoedd—nid yw’n iachâd ar gyfer holl helbulon; mae’n fan cychwyn. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn y mae’n dangos yw y gall partneriaid potensial fod yn hyderus wrth ffurfio partneriaethau o’r fath—Cymdeithas Adeiladu’r Principality yn yr achos hwn, yn ogystal â phump o’n landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig, ac yr ydym wedi dangos drwy hynny, i bartneriaid posibl yn y sector tai ac yn y sector ariannol, bod Llywodraeth Cymru o ddifrif am fodelau o’r fath, ac yn barod i siarad. Rydym eisoes wrthi’n cynnal trafodaethau cychwynnol gyda phob math o bartneriaid, ni allaf, byddwch yn deall, eu datgelu ar hyn o bryd. Mae partneriaeth tai Cymru yn sicr yn fan cychwyn o ran yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i lifau ariannol arloesol.

Safleoedd o Ddiddordeb Hanesyddol

Sites of Historical Interest

3. Alun Ffred Jones: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am safleoedd rhestredig o ddiddordeb hanesyddol cenedlaethol. OAQ(4)0037(HRH)

3. Alun Ffred Jones: Will the Minister make a statement about listed sites of national historical interest. OAQ(4)0037(HRH)

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for Arfon for that question. Wales’s listed buildings are key components of our heritage and help to give Wales its distinctive character and sense of place. Their protection and sustainable use provide opportunities for regeneration and economic benefit. Arfon, by way of interest, contains some 4 per cent of the listed buildings of Wales, and therefore is probably punching well above its weight.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Arfon am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae adeiladau rhestredig Cymru yn elfennau allweddol o’n treftadaeth ac yn helpu i roi iddi ei chymeriad unigryw a’i ymdeimlad o le. Mae eu diogelu a’u defnydd cynaliadwy yn darparu cyfleoedd ar gyfer adfywio a budd economaidd. Mae Arfon, er diddordeb, yn cynnwys tua 4 y cant o adeiladau rhestredig Cymru, ac felly yn ôl pob tebyg yn cyfrannu llawer mwy na’r disgwyl o ystyried ei maint.

Alun Ffred Jones: Diolch yn fawr am yr ateb. Mae llawer o’r safleoedd hyn, a derbyn popeth y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i ddweud, mewn dwylo preifat. Yr wyf yn sôn am safleoedd megis Sycharth neu Abaty Cwm Hir. Yn aml iawn, nid oes arwyddion, mae’r wybodaeth yn brin, ac mae’r mynediad yn anodd. Yr oedd cynllun i geisio cydweithio gyda’r landlordiaid i wella mynediad. A fyddech cystal â chyflwyno adroddiad, os na allwch roi’r wybodaeth heddiw, ar y cynnydd sydd wedi bod ynglŷn â gwella mynediad y cyhoedd i’r safleoedd cenedlaethol pwysig hyn?

Alun Ffred Jones: Thank you for that answer. Many of these sites, accepting everything that the Minister has said, are in private hands. I am referring to sites such as Sycharth or Cwm Hir Abbey. Often there is no signage, information is scarce, and access is difficult. There was a scheme to try to work with the landlords to improve access. Would you be so good as to bring forward a report, if you cannot provide the information today, on the progress that has been made on improving public access to these important national sites?

Huw Lewis: I will of course commit to write to the Member to give details of progress on that agenda. As a reminder, I draw Members’ attention to the fact that we are in the run-up to the putting together of a heritage Bill, which will, hopefully, go through its Plenary stages sometime in 2014 or 2015. The issue of private ownership of listed buildings and sites should very much be part of the conversation about how we ensure that Wales’s heritage is preserved and how it can contribute to not only civic pride within a community, but the economic viability and future of a community.

Huw Lewis: Byddaf, wrth gwrs, yn ymrwymo i ysgrifennu at yr Aelod er mwyn rhoi manylion y cynnydd ar yr agenda hwnnw. I’ch atgoffa, tynnaf sylw’r Aelodau at y ffaith ein bod yn nesáu at lunio’r Bil treftadaeth, a fydd, gobeithio, yn mynd drwy ei gyfnodau yn y Cyfarfod Llawn rywbryd yn 2014 neu 2015. Dylai’r mater o berchnogaeth breifat o adeiladau a safleoedd rhestredig fod yn rhan fawr iawn o’r sgwrs ar sut y gallwn sicrhau bod treftadaeth Cymru yn cael ei chadw a sut y gall gyfrannu at nid yn unig balchder dinesig o fewn cymuned, ond hyfywedd economaidd a dyfodol cymuned.

Julie Morgan: Will the Minister confirm that listed sites of this nature—scheduled ancient monuments, listed buildings—will be protected under any future planning law?

Julie Morgan: A wnaiff y Gweinidog gadarnhau y bydd safleoedd rhestredig o’r fath—henebion cofrestredig ac adeiladau rhestredig—yn cael eu diogelu o dan unrhyw ddeddf cynllunio yn y dyfodol?

Huw Lewis: Yes. I cannot see any reason why we would shift from the basic commitment to protect our heritage and certain basic assumptions about how that is undertaken. We have a huge chance to open up this debate and this agenda, to make it as up to date and sensitive to communities’ needs as possible, in the run-up to the drafting of the heritage Bill.

Huw Lewis: Gwnaf. Ni allaf weld unrhyw reswm pam y byddem yn symud oddi wrth yr ymrwymiad sylfaenol i ddiogelu ein treftadaeth a rhai tybiaethau sylfaenol am sut y gwneir hynny. Mae gennym gyfle mawr i agor y ddadl hon a’r agenda hon, i’w wneud mor gyfredol a sensitif i anghenion cymunedau ag y bo modd, yn y cyfnod yn arwain at ddrafftio’r Bil treftadaeth.

Suzy Davies: People in Port Talbot continue to fight for the preservation of buildings that do not merit formal listing but which, in the context of the location, help to describe the economic and social history of the area. That goes to the heart of tourism and regeneration. Does the Minister’s built heritage policy, in the build-up to the heritage Bill, include a review of the concept of conservation areas in local planning? If so, will he outline how he would empower local people to take control of preserving these irreplaceable local assets and thereby relieve councils of the burden of taking sometimes difficult but destructive decisions?

Suzy Davies: Mae pobl ym Mhort Talbot yn parhau i ymladd dros warchod adeiladau nad ydynt yn teilyngu rhestru ffurfiol ond sydd, yng nghyd-destun y lleoliad, yn helpu i ddisgrifio hanes economaidd a chymdeithasol yr ardal. Mae hynny’n mynd at wraidd twristiaeth ac adfywio. Wrth baratoi ar gyfer y Bil treftadaeth a yw polisi treftadaeth adeiledig y Gweinidog yn cynnwys adolygiad o’r cysyniad o ardaloedd cadwraeth yn cynllunio lleol? Os felly, a wnaiff amlinellu sut y byddai’n grymuso pobl leol i gymryd rheolaeth o ddiogelu’r asedau lleol gwerthfawr hyn a thrwy hynny lleddfu cynghorau o’r baich o wneud penderfyniadau anodd ond ddinistriol weithiau?

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for the question, because she has very much described a personal enthusiasm of mine, which is to address the real pride that many communities have in aspects of built heritage, in particular, although we may also be talking about landscape here, that perhaps do not qualify in terms of the traditional listings procedure, but which are very much part of a community’s sense of place. That sense of place is trampled upon at everyone’s peril. Members who represent constituencies with an industrial heritage, such as mine, will be aware of lost jewels in buildings that defined a place, but which have been lost because they were not necessarily thought of as listable in the traditional sense. There is an important conversation to be had here. I do not pretend to have a ready answer on this as of yet, but there is a conversation to be had about how we preserve the look and feel of special parts of Wales in terms of built heritage that might not necessarily qualify for traditional listing but that ought to be taken care of in future planning and investment in relation to the built environment.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn, gan ei bod wedi disgrifio i raddau helaeth brwdfrydedd personol i mi, sef mynd i’r afael â’r balchder gwirioneddol y mae gan lawer o gymunedau mewn agweddau ar dreftadaeth adeiledig, yn arbennig, er efallai y byddwn hefyd yn siarad am dirwedd yma, nad yw efallai yn gymwys o ran y weithdrefn rhestrau traddodiadol, ond sydd yn rhan fawr o ymdeimlad cymuned o le. Gwae pawb os caiff yr ymdeimlad hwnnw o le ei sathru arno. Bydd Aelodau sy’n cynrychioli etholaethau sydd â threftadaeth ddiwydiannol, megis fy un i, yn ymwybodol o dlysau a gollwyd mewn adeiladau sy’n diffinio lle, ond sydd wedi cael eu colli oherwydd ni chredwyd eu bod o reidrwydd yn rhestradwy yn yr ystyr draddodiadol. Mae sgwrs bwysig i’w gael yma. Nid wyf yn honni i gael ateb parod ar hyn eto, ond mae sgwrs i’w gael ar sut y gallwn gadw golwg a naws rhannau arbennig o Gymru o ran treftadaeth adeiledig nad sydd o reidrwydd yn gymwys ar gyfer rhestru draddodiadol ond a ddylai cael eu gwarchod wrth gynllunio a buddsoddi yn y dyfodol mewn perthynas â’r amgylchedd adeiledig.

The Presiding Officer: Question 4, OAQ(4)0023(HRH), has been transferred for written answer.

Llywydd: Mae cwestiwn 4, OAQ(4)0023(HRH), wedi’i drosglwyddo i’w ateb yn ysgrifenedig.

Gwarchod Adeiladau Hanesyddol

Preservation of Historical Buildings

5. Mike Hedges: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am warchod adeiladau hanesyddol yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0034(HRH)

5. Mike Hedges: Will the Minister make a statement on the preservation of historical buildings in Wales. OAQ(4)0034(HRH)

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for Swansea East for that question. Historic buildings give communities their character and should be valued. Some 30,000 buildings across Wales are protected through listing for their special interest. Grants are available for historic building repair and restoration from Cadw, other parts of the Welsh Government, and organisations such as the Heritage Lottery Fund.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Ddwyrain Abertawe am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae adeiladau hanesyddol yn rhoi i gymunedau eu cymeriad a dylid eu gwerthfawrogi. Diogelir 30,000 o adeiladau ledled Cymru drwy restru am eu diddordeb arbennig. Mae grantiau ar gael ar gyfer atgyweirio ac adfer adeiladau hanesyddol gan Cadw, rannau eraill o Lywodraeth Cymru, a sefydliadau megis Cronfa Dreftadaeth y Loteri.

Mike Hedges: I thank the Minister for his response. Among those buildings are a large number of chapels that are grade I and grade II listed, many of which have declining and ageing congregations. Will the Minister consider setting up a taskforce to look at the future of chapels in Wales?

Mike Hedges: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei ymateb. Ymhlith yr adeiladau hynny y mae nifer fawr o gapeli a restrir yn radd I a gradd II, y mae llawer ohonynt wedi dirywio a chanddynt gynulleidfaoedd sy’n heneiddio. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried sefydlu tasglu i edrych ar ddyfodol capeli yng Nghymru?

Huw Lewis: That is a tremendously important question, and I thank you for it. Some aspects of it relate to Suzy Davies’s question. I very much agree that historic chapels are an important part of our built heritage throughout Wales. I understand that around 900 of them are listed already, with the listings ranging from grade I—as for the Tabernacle in Morriston, for example—to grade II. I will be meeting the leaders of several denominations—the Union of Welsh Independents, the Baptist Union of Wales, and the Presbyterian Church in Wales—on 13 October to discuss chapels in Wales. Chapels, whether listed or not, are part of the built character of many communities in Wales. The conversation also leads us on to the heritage Bill for Wales and what that might say about chapels. I will bear in mind the option of having a chapels advisory group or taskforce, which I know that the Member has been keen to promote, as part of that review. We need to shift to a wholly new consideration of the importance of our built heritage in this regard, whether we are talking about listed buildings or not, and of the special characteristics of the Welsh built environment as a matter of concern.

Huw Lewis: Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn hynod o bwysig, ac yr wyf yn diolch i chi am hynny. Mae rhai agweddau ohono’n ymwneud â chwestiwn Suzy Davies. Cytunaf yn llwyr fod capeli hanesyddol yn rhan bwysig o’n treftadaeth adeiledig ledled Cymru. Deallaf fod tua 900 ohonynt yn cael eu rhestru yn barod, gyda’r rhestrau’n amrywio o radd I—ar gyfer y Tabernacl yn Nhreforys, er enghraifft—i radd II. Byddaf yn cyfarfod ag arweinwyr sawl enwad—Undeb yr Annibynwyr Cymraeg, Undeb Bedyddwyr Cymru, a’r Eglwys Bresbyteraidd yng Nghymru—ar 13 Hydref i drafod capeli yng Nghymru. Mae capeli, boed yn rhestredig neu beidio, yn rhan o gymeriad adeiledig llawer o gymunedau yng Nghymru. Mae’r sgwrs hefyd yn ein harwain at y Bil treftadaeth ar gyfer Cymru a’r hyn y gallai hynny ddweud am gapeli. Byddaf yn cadw mewn cof yr opsiwn o gael grŵp cynghori capeli neu dasglu, yr wyf yn gwybod bod yr Aelod wedi bod yn awyddus i’w hyrwyddo, fel rhan o’r adolygiad hwnnw. Mae angen i ni symud at ystyriaeth hollol newydd o bwysigrwydd ein treftadaeth adeiledig yn hyn o beth, a ydym yn sôn am adeiladau rhestredig ai peidio, ac o nodweddion arbennig yr amgylchedd adeiledig yng Nghymru fel mater o bryder.

Bethan Jenkins: Minister, you mentioned earlier the fact that the heritage Bill will be announced, or that there will be a consultation or conversation, as you put it, in 2014 or 2015. Could we have more details on the nature and scope of the Bill? Buildings are being demolished and are under threat as we speak, and I would therefore like to see some urgency from you, Minister, in this regard.

Bethan Jenkins: Weinidog, soniasoch yn gynharach y bydd y Bil treftadaeth yn cael ei gyhoeddi, neu y bydd ymgynghori neu sgwrs, yn eich geiriau chi, yn 2014 neu 2015. A allem gael mwy o fanylion am natur a chwmpas y Bil? Caiff adeiladau eu dymchwel ac maent o dan fygythiad wrth i ni siarad, a byddwn felly’n hoffi gweld rhywfaint o frys gennych, Weinidog, yn y cyswllt hwn.

Huw Lewis: That is all very well, but we have a legislative timetable, which, despite any amount of huffing and puffing and wishful thinking, is constrained by the capacity of the Assembly to make good law. We must ensure, in passing legislation, that the legislation is worth the paper that it is printed on and is not rushed, garbled or confused in any way. That does not mean that the business of Government in addressing these issues stops and waits for the heritage Bill to be drafted. I simply point to there being a useful and valuable window of time within which we, as a community of concerned citizens in Wales, from all parties and none, can contribute to a nationwide debate on the issue. The work of ensuring funding and investing in our built historic environment goes on day to day, regardless.

Huw Lewis: Mae hynny i gyd yn dda iawn, ond mae gennym amserlen ddeddfwriaethol, sydd, er gwaethaf y chwythu a chwysu a’r freuddwyd gwrach, yn cael ei gyfyngu gan allu’r Cynulliad i wneud cyfraith dda. Rhaid inni sicrhau, wrth basio deddfwriaeth, bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn werth y papur y’i hargraffwyd arno ac nad yw’n frysiog, yn garbwl neu’n ddryslyd mewn unrhyw ffordd. Nid yw hynny’n golygu bod busnes y Llywodraeth wrth fynd i’r afael â’r materion hyn yn stopio ac yn aros i’r Bil treftadaeth gael ei ddrafftio. Dywedaf yn syml fod ffenestr ddefnyddiol a gwerthfawr o amser pan allwn, fel cymuned o ddinasyddion pryderus yng Nghymru, o bob plaid a dim un, gyfrannu at drafodaeth genedlaethol ar y mater. Mae’r gwaith o sicrhau ariannu a buddsoddi yn ein hamgylchedd hanesyddol adeiledig yn mynd ymlaen o ddydd i ddydd, beth bynnag.

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I would not want a garbled or confused piece of legislation either, because this matter is very important for the future of Wales. In South Wales West, there are proposals for the conversion of the smelting sheds at the Upper Bank works in Swansea into 12 flats, and for conversions of the Custom House and the Royal Buildings in Port Talbot. I understand that you will be working in the lead-up to the heritage Bill, but those buildings are under threat now. I urge you, Minister, to look at those and other proposals, especially for buildings that are not currently protected, as they are part of our industrial heritage and do not qualify under the listing process as it stands.

Bethan Jenkins: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Ni fyddwn am ddarn carbwl neu ddryslyd o ddeddfwriaeth ychwaith, gan fod y mater yn bwysig iawn i ddyfodol Cymru. Yng Ngorllewin De Cymru, mae cynigion ar gyfer trawsnewid y siediau mwyndoddi yn y gweithfeydd Upper Bank yn Abertawe yn 12 o fflatiau, ac ar gyfer trawsnewidiadau’r Custom House a’r Adeiladau Brenhinol ym Mhort Talbot. Deallaf y byddwch yn gweithio yn y cyfnod cyn y Bil treftadaeth, ond y mae’r adeiladau hynny o dan fygythiad yn awr. Pwysaf arnoch, Weinidog, i edrych ar y rheini a chynigion eraill, yn enwedig ar gyfer adeiladau nad ydynt yn cael eu diogelu ar hyn o bryd, gan eu bod yn rhan o’n treftadaeth ddiwydiannol ac nid ydynt yn gymwys o dan y broses restru fel saif.

Huw Lewis: I take on board what the Member says, and perhaps she will accept that I will write to her on those issues. It would be difficult for me to comment here on the ins and outs of individual proposals, such as those in relation to the smelting sheds. Representations from any Assembly Member or any other elected representative of any community concerning issues such as this in their locality will receive my swift and undivided attention.

Huw Lewis: Yr wyf yn derbyn yr hyn y mae’r Aelod yn ei ddweud, ac efallai y bydd yn derbyn y byddaf yn ysgrifennu ati ar y materion hynny. Byddai’n anodd i mi roi sylw yma ar fanylion cymhleth cynigion unigol, megis y rhai mewn perthynas â’r siediau mwyndoddi. Bydd sylwadau gan unrhyw Aelod o’r Cynulliad neu unrhyw gynrychiolydd etholedig arall o unrhyw gymuned yn ymwneud â materion fel hyn yn eu hardal yn cael fy holl sylw a hynny’n gyflym.

2.45 p.m.

David Rees: Minister, you have already acknowledged the importance of historic buildings, but their restoration will depend upon having skilled craftsmen in the trades necessary to bring them back to the levels and standards required by their status. What plans do you or the Government have to create a skills base in Wales to allow that work to be undertaken?

David Rees: Weinidog, yr ydych eisoes wedi cydnabod pwysigrwydd adeiladau hanesyddol, ond bydd eu hadfer yn dibynnu ar gael crefftwyr medrus yn y crefftau angenrheidiol i ddod â hwy yn ôl i’r lefelau a’r safonau sy’n ofynnol yn ôl eu statws. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych chi neu’r Llywodraeth i greu sylfaen sgiliau yng Nghymru er mwyn caniatáu i’r gwaith hwnnw gael ei wneud?

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for Aberavon for his perceptive question. This is an area of work that must be taken forward in tandem with those conversations about how we care for and invest in—and how communities make best use of—our historical built environment. It is no good to aim cash and resource at a project if we do not have the people who are skilled enough to undertake what in some instances will be quite specialised work. Just this morning, in one of a series of meetings on this topic, I met with ConstructionSkills Wales, and I can assure you that there is an exciting agenda beginning to form for what I hope will become a centre of excellence in Wales in terms of fostering traditional and high-end construction and heritage skills. We already have a good input from Cadw and its craft skills team, but the agenda here is much wider. This jobs market—for those higher-end construction skills across the board—has a great deal of potential. I will be undertaking a great deal of work to try to ensure that we are at the forefront of this agenda across the UK.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Aberafan am ei gwestiwn craff. Mae hwn yn faes gwaith y mae’n rhaid ei ddwyn ymlaen ar y cyd â’r sgyrsiau hynny am y ffordd yr ydym yn gofalu am ac yn buddsoddi—a sut mae cymunedau’n gwneud y defnydd gorau ohono—yn ein hamgylchedd adeiledig hanesyddol. Nid oes diben anelu arian parod ac adnoddau at brosiect os nad oes gennym y bobl sy’n ddigon medrus i ymgymryd â’r hyn a fydd, mewn rhai achosion, yn waith eithaf arbenigol. Dim ond y bore yma, mewn un o gyfres o gyfarfodydd ar y pwnc hwn, cyfarfûm â Sgiliau Adeiladu Cymru, a gallaf eich sicrhau bod agenda cyffrous yn dechrau ffurfio ar gyfer yr hyn yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd yn dod yn ganolfan ragoriaeth yng Nghymru o ran meithrin sgiliau adeiladu a threftadaeth traddodiadol ac uchel. Yr ydym eisoes yn cael mewnbwn da gan Cadw a’i dîm sgiliau crefft, ond mae’r agenda hwn yn llawer ehangach. Mae gan y farchnad swyddi hon—ar gyfer y swyddi sgiliau adeiladu uwch hynny, ar draws y bwrdd—lawer iawn o botensial. Byddaf yn ymgymryd â llawer iawn o waith i geisio sicrhau ein bod ar flaen y gad gyda’r agenda hwn ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig.

Tai Fforddiadwy

Affordable Housing

6. William Powell: O gofio’r anawsterau presennol yn y farchnad dai, pa gynigion ymarferol sydd gan y Gweinidog i hybu tai fforddiadwy, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig. OAQ(4)0021(HRH)

6. William Powell: Given the current difficulties within the housing market, what practical proposals does the Minister have to promote affordable housing, particularly in rural areas. OAQ(4)0021(HRH)

Huw Lewis: Increasing affordable housing in rural areas is a national housing strategy priority. We are developing innovative ways of delivering homes at a time of budget pressure. In recognition of particular challenges faced by rural communities, we continue to support rural housing enablers, who work closely with communities to promote and deliver affordable housing.

Huw Lewis: Mae cynyddu tai fforddiadwy mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn flaenoriaeth yn y strategaeth dai genedlaethol. Yr ydym yn datblygu ffyrdd arloesol o ddarparu cartrefi ar adeg o bwysau ar y gyllideb. Er mwyn cydnabod heriau penodol a wynebir gan gymunedau gwledig, yr ydym yn parhau i gefnogi swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig, sy’n gweithio’n agos gyda chymunedau i hyrwyddo a darparu tai fforddiadwy.

William Powell: Thank you very much for that answer. Personally, I have good positive experiences of the work of the rural housing enablers in promoting partnerships across various local authorities. Minister, can you assure us that you will also be working closely with your colleague the Minister for Environment and Sustainability to ensure that the local development plan proposals that come forward from across Wales are robust in terms of their housing projections, particularly in the local authorities in the three national park authority areas. National park authorities are not responsible for delivering housing, but have wider responsibilities for ensuring that local development plan proposals are based on robust housing data and intensive collaboration with those local authorities. It is a particularly challenging matter.

William Powell: Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb hwnnw. Yn bersonol, mae gennyf brofiadau cadarnhaol da o waith y swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig wrth hyrwyddo partneriaethau ar draws gwahanol awdurdodau lleol. Weinidog, a allwch ein sicrhau y byddwch hefyd yn cydweithio’n agos â’ch cydweithiwr, y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd a Chynaliadwyedd, i sicrhau bod cynigion y cynllun datblygu lleol a gyflwynir o bob cwr o Gymru yn gadarn o ran eu rhagamcanion tai, yn enwedig yn yr awdurdodau lleol yn y tair ardal awdurdod parc cenedlaethol. Nid yw awdurdodau parciau cenedlaethol yn gyfrifol am ddarparu tai, ond mae ganddynt gyfrifoldebau ehangach am sicrhau bod cynigion y cynllun datblygu lleol yn seiliedig ar ddata tai cadarn a chydweithrediad dwys gyda’r awdurdodau lleol hynny. Mae’n fater arbennig o heriol.

Huw Lewis: I am very pleased to hear about your positive experience of rural housing enablers. I am currently undertaking a mapping exercise of the projects across Wales, looking at exactly how we plan the next level of activity with regard to how the rural housing enablers engage with rural communities. On local development plans, I repeat that these are a matter for local authorities. They have to ensure that those plans comply with regulations, planning law and so on. The Welsh Government is always willing to talk to and co-operate with community representatives, local authorities and others. However, at the end of the day, it is for local authorities to get their local development plans right, and it is for them to estimate housing need to the best of their ability.

Huw Lewis: Yr wyf yn falch iawn o glywed am eich profiad cadarnhaol o swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig. Ar hyn o bryd yr wyf yn gwneud gwaith mapio o’r prosiectau ledled Cymru, gan edrych ar sut yn union yr ydym yn cynllunio’r lefel nesaf o weithgarwch o ran sut y mae’r swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig yn ymgysylltu â chymunedau gwledig. Ar gynlluniau datblygu lleol, yr wyf yn ailadrodd mai mater i awdurdodau lleol yw’r rhain. Mae’n rhaid iddynt sicrhau bod y cynlluniau hynny’n cydymffurfio â rheoliadau, y gyfraith gynllunio, ac yn y blaen. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wastad yn barod i siarad â hwy a chydweithredu â chynrychiolwyr cymunedol, awdurdodau lleol, ac eraill. Fodd bynnag, ar ddiwedd y dydd, mater i’r awdurdodau lleol yw cael eu cynlluniau datblygu lleol yn iawn, a mater iddynt hwy yw amcangyfrif yr angen am dai hyd eithaf eu gallu.

Sandy Mewies: Minister, as you are aware, the cross-party group on housing, which I chair, reconvened last night and was extremely well supported by many Assembly Members, the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, Shelter Cymru and many other housing organisations and, of course, by you. Everyone there was delighted with your support and with the programme you outlined for the future. However, can you assure me that you will continue to work with partners like housing associations, the private sector and other key partners to deliver the solutions that we all know will be needed to meet the challenges that we face?

Sandy Mewies: Weinidog, fel y gwyddoch, neithiwr, ailymgynullodd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar dai, yr wyf yn gadeirydd arno, a chafodd ei gefnogi yn arbennig o dda gan lawer o Aelodau’r Cynulliad, Sefydliad Tai Siartredig Cymru, Shelter Cymru a llawer o sefydliadau tai eraill, ac, wrth gwrs, gennych chi. Yr oedd pawb a oedd yno wrth eu bodd gyda’ch cefnogaeth a gyda’r rhaglen a amlinellwyd gennych ar gyfer y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, a allwch fy sicrhau y byddwch yn parhau i weithio gyda phartneriaid megis cymdeithasau tai, y sector preifat a phartneriaid allweddol eraill i ddarparu’r atebion yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod y bydd eu hangen i ymateb i’r heriau sy’n ein wynebu?

Huw Lewis: I thank Sandy Mewies for that question. She is absolutely correct; I was bowled over yesterday evening by the level of cross-party commitment to the cross-party group on housing. It was great to see it. I am confident that that will continue. I know that there is potentially a lot of common ground between the political parties in the Chamber with regard to ensuring that this agenda is right. It is at the centre of the concerns of Government, and I know that this is also true of other political parties.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i Sandy Mewies am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae’n hollol gywir; cefais fy syfrdanu neithiwr gan lefel yr ymrwymiad trawsbleidiol i’r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar dai. Yr oedd yn wych i’w weld. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd hynny’n parhau. Gwn fod o bosibl lawer o dir cyffredin rhwng y pleidiau gwleidyddol yn y Siambr o ran sicrhau bod yr agenda hwn yn iawn. Mae ynghanol pryderon y Llywodraeth, a gwn fod hyn hefyd yn wir am bleidiau gwleidyddol eraill.

You mentioned partners outside Government, which include housing associations, the private sector, house-builders, private landlords and local authorities. All of those potential partners need to be a part of the ongoing conversation and we all need to develop a sense of urgency in addressing problems of quality, first of all, which we have been tackling for some time, as well as the problems of affordability and supply. More and more Welsh families will be facing an affordability problem when it comes to keeping a roof over their heads, regardless of the nature of their tenure—whether in the private rented sector, social housing, or owner-occupation, affordability will be at the front of the minds of thousands of Welsh householders. We need to stand by their side. We need to work together, across the parties, to ensure that those challenges are met.

Soniasoch am bartneriaid y tu allan i’r Llywodraeth, sy’n cynnwys cymdeithasau tai, y sector preifat, adeiladwyr tai, landlordiaid preifat ac awdurdodau lleol. Mae angen i bob un o’r partneriaid posibl hynny fod yn rhan o’r sgwrs barhaus ac mae angen i ni i gyd ddatblygu ymdeimlad o frys wrth fynd i’r afael â phroblemau o ansawdd, yn gyntaf oll, yr ydym wedi bod yn ymdrin â hwy am beth amser, yn ogystal â phroblemau fforddiadwyedd a chyflenwi. Bydd mwy a mwy o deuluoedd Cymru yn wynebu problem fforddiadwyedd pan ddaw’n fater o gadw to uwch eu pennau, beth bynnag fo natur eu daliadaeth—yn y sector rhentu preifat, tai cymdeithasol, neu berchen-feddiannaeth—bydd fforddiadwyedd ar flaen meddyliau miloedd o ddeiliaid tai yng Nghymru. Mae angen i ni sefyll wrth eu hochr. Mae angen i ni gydweithio ar draws y pleidiau i sicrhau bod yr heriau hynny yn cael eu bodloni.

Mark Isherwood: I have been advised that the Welsh Government proposes to reduce its contribution to the cost of each rural housing enabler, from £15,000 to £10,000, and that this could mean that they will have to work part time or be scrapped. I support them and I believe that their role needs to be developed and enhanced in the future. How do you respond to that assertion? Can you assure me that that is not the case? If it is the case, will you reconsider your position, given the relatively tiny sums involved?

Mark Isherwood: Yr wyf wedi cael gwybod bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu lleihau ei chyfraniad at gost pob swyddog galluogi tai gwledig, o £15,000 i £10,000, ac y gall hyn olygu y bydd yn rhaid iddynt weithio’n rhan-amser neu gael eu dileu. Yr wyf yn eu cefnogi a chredaf fod angen datblygu eu rôl a’i wella yn y dyfodol. Sut ydych yn ymateb i’r honiad hwnnw? A allwch fy sicrhau nad yw hynny’n wir? Os yw’n wir, a fyddwch yn ailystyried eich safbwynt, o ystyried y symiau cymharol fach dan sylw?

Huw Lewis: Mark Isherwood will be aware that there is barely a section of any ministerial budget that is not under pressure, and rural housing enablers will not be an exception to that. Given that you have raised this point, Mark, I undertake to look at this closely once again and I will write to you with information regarding the current situation. I understand your concern on this issue. It was always the intention that rural housing enablers should help to raise money and not just spend it—realising resource, and not just spending public money. However, I will take a second close look at that and write to you on the issue.

Huw Lewis: Bydd Mark Isherwood yn ymwybodol bod prin adran o unrhyw gyllideb weinidogol nad yw o dan bwysau, ac ni fydd swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig yn eithriad i hynny. O gofio eich bod wedi codi’r pwynt hwn, Mark, yr wyf yn addo edrych ar hyn yn ofalus unwaith eto a byddaf yn ysgrifennu atoch â gwybodaeth am y sefyllfa bresennol. Yr wyf yn deall eich pryder ynghylch y mater hwn. Y bwriad bob amser oedd y dylai swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig helpu i godi arian, nid ei wario yn unig—gan wireddu adnodd, nid gwario arian cyhoeddus yn unig. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn ail-edrych yn fanwl ar hynny ac yn ysgrifennu atoch ar y mater.

Mark Isherwood: I look forward to receiving that and I thank you for your response.

Mark Isherwood: Yr wyf yn edrych ymlaen at dderbyn hynny ac yr wyf yn diolch i chi am eich ymateb.

The rural housing enablers I have spoken to over the years have advised me that it often takes a while to become established and to become effective, because of the barriers they encounter, or because people misunderstand what affordable housing means or misunderstand local need, and in some cases, they deny that there is local need because it may be hidden in their communities. Enablers are now putting a lot of effort into encouraging people to join affordable home ownership registers, which are developed specifically to help first-time buyers to get on the property ladder, or allow people to rent so that they can save a deposit to acquire a home of their own in the future. However, few people know that they exist. Too often, I have been told by local authorities that there is only a tiny number of people on their list. However, if you go down to the local estate agent, a single agency will have more people on its first-time buyer list than the whole of the local authority. What action can you take, or what action are you considering, to empower rural housing enablers further so that, where they encounter barriers, they can, for example, go straight to communities and carry out affordable housing surveys if they face a lack of co-operation from the community council or another body at the local level?

Mae’r swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig yr wyf wedi siarad â hwy dros y blynyddoedd wedi dweud wrthyf ei bod yn aml yn cymryd amser iddynt ymsefydlu ac i ddod yn effeithiol, oherwydd y rhwystrau y maent yn dod ar eu traws, neu oherwydd bod pobl yn camddeall yr hyn y mae tai fforddiadwy yn ei olygu neu’n camddeall anghenion lleol, ac mewn rhai achosion, maent yn gwadu bod yna angen lleol oherwydd y gall fod yn guddiedig yn eu cymunedau. Mae swyddogion galluogi yn awr yn gwneud llawer o ymdrech i annog pobl i ymuno â chofrestrau perchenogaeth fforddiadwy, sy’n cael eu datblygu’n benodol i helpu prynwyr tro cyntaf i fynd ar yr ysgol eiddo, neu ganiatáu i bobl i’w rhentu er mwyn iddynt gynilo ar gyfer blaendal i brynu cartref eu hunain yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, ychydig bobl sydd yn gwybod eu bod yn bodoli. Yn rhy aml, yr wyf wedi cael gwybod gan awdurdodau lleol mai dim ond nifer fach iawn o bobl sydd ar eu rhestr. Fodd bynnag, os ewch i lawr at yr asiant tai lleol, bydd gan un asiantaeth fwy o bobl ar ei restr prynwyr tro cyntaf na’r awdurdod lleol cyfan. Pa gamau y gallwch eu cymryd, neu pa gamau yr ydych yn eu hystyried, i roi grym i swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig ymhellach fel eu bod, lle maent yn dod ar draws rhwystrau, yn gallu, er enghraifft, mynd yn syth i gymunedau a chynnal arolygon tai fforddiadwy os ydynt yn wynebu diffyg cydweithrediad gan y cyngor cymuned neu gorff arall ar lefel leol?

Huw Lewis: Thank you for that insightful question. As I mentioned before, I am currently undertaking a mapping exercise to get to grips with some of the issues that you mentioned. I fully realise and understand that the work of rural housing enablers does not necessarily produce instant returns, by the very nature of the multiple barriers that they face when they seek to get their work moving in particular communities. When acting as representatives of communities in the Assembly and in our dealings with local authorities, I believe that we all need to shift our expectations to another level when it comes to the urgency of need that will be present in every community across the country. Rural communities will not be immune from this. That is a message for rural housing enablers themselves. It is also a message for local authorities, and it is a message for those people who would automatically oppose housing developments in rural areas simply because they are housing developments in a rural areas. We must move beyond that attitude and start thinking about the real and pressing needs of families in rural Wales, as well as those in other parts of the country.

Huw Lewis: Diolch ichi am y cwestiwn craff. Fel y soniais o’r blaen, yr wyf wrthi’n gwneud gwaith mapio i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r materion a grybwyllwyd gennych. Yr wyf yn llwyr sylweddoli ac yn deall nad yw gwaith y swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig o reidrwydd yn arwain at elw ar unwaith, oherwydd natur y rhwystrau niferus y maent yn eu hwynebu pan fyddant yn ceisio sicrhau bod eu gwaith yn mynd rhagddo mewn cymunedau penodol. Wrth weithredu fel cynrychiolwyr cymunedau yn y Cynulliad ac wrth ymwneud ag awdurdodau lleol, credaf fod angen i ni i gyd symud ein disgwyliadau i lefel arall pan mae’n dod i angen brys a fydd yn bresennol ym mhob cymuned ar draws y wlad. Ni fydd cymunedau gwledig yn ddiogel rhag hyn. Mae honno’n neges ar gyfer swyddogion galluogi tai gwledig eu hunain. Mae hefyd yn neges i awdurdodau lleol, ac mae’n neges i’r bobl a fyddai’n gwrthwynebu datblygiadau tai yn awtomatig mewn ardaloedd gwledig dim ond oherwydd eu bod yn ddatblygiadau tai mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae’n rhaid i ni symud y tu hwnt i’r agwedd hwnnw a dechrau meddwl am anghenion gwirioneddol a phwysig teuluoedd yng nghefn gwlad Cymru, yn ogystal â’r rhai mewn rhannau eraill o’r wlad.

Tai Gwag

Empty Homes

7. Eluned Parrott: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu ei bolisi ar dai gwag. OAQ(4)0031(HRH)

7. Eluned Parrott: Will the Minister outline his policy on empty homes. OAQ(4)0031(HRH)

Huw Lewis: I am considering what more needs to be done to increase the number of empty properties brought back into use, as it is essential to make full use of our existing housing stock. An empty property could be a valuable home for a family that really needs it. Our manifesto commitment to an empty properties initiative will be at the forefront of my policy commitments and my working agenda over the next Assembly term.

Huw Lewis: Yr wyf yn ystyried beth arall y mae angen ei wneud i gynyddu nifer yr eiddo gwag sy’n dod yn ôl i ddefnydd, gan ei bod yn hanfodol i wneud defnydd llawn o’n stoc dai bresennol. Gall eiddo gwag fod yn gartref gwerthfawr i deulu sydd wir ei angen. Bydd ein hymrwymiad maniffesto i fenter eiddo gwag ar flaen fy ymrwymiadau polisi a’m hagenda gwaith dros dymor nesaf y Cynulliad.

Eluned Parrott: That is wonderful to hear, Minister. I am sure that you are aware that only three interim empty dwelling management Orders have been made in Wales since they first became available in 2006. These form only part of a menu of options to deal with the issue of empty homes, but do you believe that the process has become too complex and requires streamlining? If so, how do you plan to streamline the process?

Eluned Parrott: Mae hynny’n wych i’w glywed, Weinidog. Mae’n siŵr gennyf eich bod yn ymwybodol mai dim ond tri Gorchymyn rheoli anheddau gwag interim sydd wedi’u gwneud yng Nghymru ers iddynt ddod ar gael yn 2006. Mae’r rhain ond yn rhan o’r ddewislen o opsiynau i ymdrin â mater cartrefi gwag, ond a ydych yn credu bod y broses wedi mynd yn rhy gymhleth ac angen ei symleiddio? Os felly, sut ydych yn bwriadu symleiddio’r broses?

Huw Lewis: If the process requires streamlining, so be it. This also needs to be part of an agenda for discussion in the run-up to the housing Bill—we are talking about 18 months or so. This is a fantastic opportunity to learn from best practices and to ensure that we do things in the very best way here in Wales.

Huw Lewis: Os ydyw’r broses angen ei symleiddio, bydd yn cael ei symleiddio. Mae angen i hyn fod yn rhan o agenda ar gyfer trafodaeth yn y cyfnod sy’n arwain at y Bil tai—yr ydym yn sôn am ryw 18 mis. Mae hwn yn gyfle gwych i ddysgu o arferion gorau a sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud pethau yn y ffordd orau yma yng Nghymru.

We are faced with a very patchy situation at present in terms of tackling empty homes and other properties in Wales. I will be writing to every local authority shortly to take a look at those pockets of best practice—and they really are just pockets of best practice—where one or two local authorities are coping with the challenge of empty properties in a praiseworthy fashion. I am thinking here of Wrexham County Borough Council, which is doing particularly well in this regard. There is no reason why other local authorities could not step up their game to the level of Wrexham’s efforts, whether they work alone or collaboratively, in a regional context, as part of the discussions on the Simpson agenda. In the run-up to the housing Bill, we have a great opportunity to get this legislation right. Meanwhile, we must emulate the best practices that we see everywhere in Wales.

Rydym yn wynebu sefyllfa anghyson iawn ar hyn o bryd o ran mynd i’r afael â chartrefi gwag ac eiddo eraill yng Nghymru. Byddaf yn ysgrifennu at bob awdurdod lleol yn fuan i gymryd golwg ar y pocedi hynny o arfer da—a dim ond pocedi ydynt, mewn gwirionedd—lle mae un neu ddau awdurdod lleol yn ymdopi â’r her o eiddo gwag mewn modd canmoladwy. Yr wyf yn meddwl yma am Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam, sy’n gwneud yn arbennig o dda yn hyn o beth. Nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na all awdurdodau lleol eraill gamu i fyny i lefel ymdrechion Wrecsam, boed yn gweithio yn unigol neu ar y cyd, mewn cyd-destun rhanbarthol, fel rhan o’r trafodaethau ar yr agenda Simpson. Yn y cyfnod sy’n arwain at y Bil tai, mae gennym gyfle gwych i gael y ddeddfwriaeth hon yn iawn. Yn y cyfamser, mae’n rhaid i ni efelychu’r arferion gorau a welwn ym mhob man yng Nghymru.

Jenny Rathbone: My experience is that people in desperate housing need are often the most vigilant, in terms of spotting when a house becomes vacant and how long it takes for the vacancy to be filled. How can we engage ordinary citizens in scrutinising landlords to ensure that properties are being re-let with the minimum possible delay?

Jenny Rathbone: Fy mhrofiad i yw mai pobl ag anghenion tai dybryd yw’r rhai mwyaf gwyliadwrus, gan amlaf, o ran sylwi pan fydd tŷ yn dod yn wag a pha mor hir y mae’n ei gymryd i’r lle gwag hwnnw gael ei lenwi. Sut allwn ni ymgysylltu dinasyddion cyffredin wrth graffu ar landlordiaid i sicrhau bod eiddo yn cael eu hail-osod gyda chyn lleied o oedi â phosib?

Huw Lewis: I know that local authorities across the UK have, over time, instituted all sorts of programmes to engage local people in reporting empty housing, with varying degrees of success. Again, this is about having dialogue on best practices and ensuring that we get that right. In formulating the empty properties initiative that I referred to earlier, I will commit to taking a strategic lead to ensure that those conversations are conducted, and that we have the roll-out of best practices as part of the initiative. That will then be reinforced and underlined through legislative change. It is absolutely right to say that a community itself is often the best judge of where a property is becoming a problem.

Huw Lewis: Gwn fod awdurdodau lleol ledled y DU, dros amser, wedi sefydlu pob math o raglenni i gynnwys pobl leol wrth adrodd am dai gwag, gyda graddau amrywiol o lwyddiant. Unwaith eto, mae hyn yn ymwneud â chael deialog ar arferion gorau a sicrhau ein bod yn cael hynny’n iawn. Wrth lunio’r fenter eiddo gwag y cyfeiriais ati yn gynharach, byddaf yn ymrwymo i gymryd arweiniad strategol i sicrhau bod y sgyrsiau hynny yn cael eu cynnal, a bod cyflwyno’r arferion gorau yn rhan o’r fenter. Bydd hynny’n cael ei atgyfnerthu a’i danlinellu drwy newid deddfwriaethol. Mae’n hollol iawn dweud bod y gymuned ei hun yn aml yn y sefyllfa orau i farnu lle y mae eiddo yn dod yn broblem.

3.00 p.m.

It is also true to say that properties are sometimes empty for good reason, at least as far as the owner is concerned. Therefore, we need to be sensitive to all those concerns. However, the overriding drive and priority is to get empty properties back into community use and to avoid the waste of assets that they represent now.

Mae hefyd yn wir i ddweud bod eiddo yn wag am resymau da weithiau, o leiaf cyn belled ag y mae’r perchennog yn y cwestiwn. Felly, mae angen bod yn sensitif i’r holl pryderon hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr ymgyrch hollbwysig a’r blaenoriaeth yw cael eiddo gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd cymunedol ac i osgoi gwastraffu asedau y maent yn eu cynrychioli yn awr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 8, OAQ(4)0024(HRH), has been transferred for written answer.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Mae cwestiwn 8, OAQ(4)0024(HRH), wedi’i drosglwyddo i’w ateb yn ysgrifenedig.

Tai Fforddiadwy

Affordable Housing

9. Gwyn R. Price: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am dai fforddiadwy yn Islwyn. OAQ(4)0033(HRH)

9. Gwyn R. Price: Will the Minister make a statement on affordable housing in Islwyn. OAQ(4)0033(HRH)

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for Islwyn. Improving the supply of housing is one of the priorities in the national housing strategy. Caerphilly County Borough Council adopted its local development plan in February 2011, in which it sets out housing provision for both market and affordable housing in the area until 2021, including in the Islwyn constituency.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Islwyn. Mae gwella’r cyflenwad tai yn un o’r blaenoriaethau yn y strategaeth dai genedlaethol. Mabwysiadodd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili ei gynllun datblygu lleol ym mis Chwefror 2011, lle mae’n nodi’r ddarpariaeth tai ar gyfer y farchnad a thai fforddiadwy yn yr ardal tan 2021, gan gynnwys yn etholaeth Islwyn.

Gwyn R. Price: Thank you for that answer. Minister, in Islwyn, and across Wales, we are facing a difficult cocktail of problems: a jobs market that is stuttering due to the actions of an economically clueless Government in Westminster, coupled with an increased demand for affordable housing. This is making it more difficult for people to find the housing that they want. Minister, these problems necessitate a different style of policy. With this in mind, will you commit yourself to looking at a co-operative or mutual approach to housing?

Gwyn R. Price: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw. Weinidog, yn Islwyn, a ledled Cymru, rydym yn wynebu coctel anodd o broblemau: marchnad swyddi araf oherwydd gweithredoedd Llywodraeth San Steffan sydd yn economaidd ddi-glem, ynghyd â chynnydd yn y galw am dai fforddiadwy. Mae hyn yn ei gwneud yn anos i bobl ddod o hyd i’r tai y maent eu heisiau. Weinidog, mae’r problemau hyn yn golygu bod angen dull gwahanol o bolisi. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, a wnewch ymrwymo eich hun i edrych ar ddull cydweithredol neu gydfuddiannol i dai?

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for Islwyn for that. You are absolutely right. It would be enough of a challenge to face up to Wales’s housing agenda, but, to make things doubly and trebly difficult, we also have the challenge of an economic downturn, which is causing a near stasis in the private housing and building market in some instances. We also have a Government in Westminster that seems determined to drive down people’s ability to be able to afford a roof over their head. If we look no further than the housing benefit changes that the UK Government is proposing, not only would those changes drive the least well-off into poorer quality properties, but they would also disincentivise landlords from entering the private rented sector market in the first place. That is a double whammy for those families, particularly younger families, which have no option apart from the private rented sector. It would be our job, as the Welsh Government, to ameliorate as far as possible the effects of these UK Government policies. However, we could be doing so much more if we did not have to clear up the mess left behind by insensitive UK Government policy.

Huw Lewis: Diolch i’r Aelod dros Islwyn am hynny. Yr ydych yn llygad eich lle. Byddai’n ddigon o her i wynebu agenda tai Cymru, ond, i wneud pethau ddwywaith a theirgwaith yn anodd, mae gennym hefyd yr her o ddirywiad economaidd, sy’n achosi ataliad, bron â bod, yn y farchnad dai preifat ac adeiladu mewn rhai achosion. Mae gennym hefyd y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan sy’n ymddangos yn benderfynol o leihau gallu pobl i allu fforddio to uwch eu pen. Os edrychwn ddim pellach na’r newidiadau yn y budd-dal tai y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ei gynnig, nid yn unig y byddai’r newidiadau hynny’n gyrru’r rhai lleiaf cefnog i eiddo o ansawdd gwaeth, ond byddent hefyd yn cymell landlordiaid rhag ymuno â’r farchnad sector rhentu preifat yn y lle cyntaf. Mae hynny’n ergyd ddwbl i’r teuluoedd hynny, yn enwedig teuluoedd iau, nad oes ganddynt unrhyw ddewis heblaw am y sector rhentu preifat. Ein gwaith ni, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, fyddai lleddfu effeithiau polisïau Llywodraeth y DU gymaint â phosibl. Fodd bynnag, gallem fod yn gwneud cymaint mwy pe na fyddai’n rhaid i ni glirio’r llanast a adawyd ar ôl gan bolisi ansensitif Llywodraeth y DU.

Caerllion

Caerleon

10. William Graham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu sut y gall Cymru fanteisio i’r eithaf ar botensial y darganfyddiadau diweddaraf yng Nghaerllion. OAQ(4)0026(HRH)

10. William Graham: Will the Minister outline how Wales can maximise the potential of the recent discoveries at Caerleon. OAQ(4)0026(HRH)

Huw Lewis: I thank the Member for South Wales East for that question. I know that he is an enthusiast for this sort of discovery, and so am I. Cardiff University’s excavations of what is only the second Roman port found in Britain have generated strong media and public interest. Plans to increase awareness and visitor numbers further include the use of digital and social media, web publicity and new interpretation materials. A forthcoming television programme will generate further publicity.

Huw Lewis: Diolchaf yr Aelod dros Ddwyrain De Cymru am y cwestiwn hwnnw. Gwn ei fod yn frwd am y math hwn o ddarganfyddiad, fel yr wyf innau. Mae cloddiadau Prifysgol Caerdydd o’r hyn sydd dim ond yr ail borthladd Rhufeinig i’w ddarganfod ym Mhrydain wedi creu diddordeb mawr yn y cyfryngau ac ymhlith y cyhoedd. Mae cynlluniau i gynyddu ymwybyddiaeth ac ymwelwyr yn cynnwys defnyddio cyfryngau digidol a chymdeithasol, cyhoeddusrwydd ar y we a deunyddiau dehongli newydd. Bydd rhaglen deledu sydd ar y gweill yn cynhyrchu cyhoeddusrwydd pellach.

William Graham: I thank the Minister for his answer. He will know that the finding of this particular port facility is quite remarkable. Will he support world heritage status for this site, if the possibility arises?

William Graham: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei ateb. Bydd yn gwybod bod canfyddiad y cyfleuster porthladd penodol hwn yn eithaf rhyfeddol. A fydd yn cefnogi statws treftadaeth y byd ar gyfer y safle, os yw’r posibilrwydd yn codi?

Huw Lewis: That is not an outlandish question to ask. Caerleon is rapidly becoming one of the most excavated, understood and exciting places from the old Roman empire that one could visit anywhere in Europe to learn about that aspect of our heritage. These new discoveries mean that there would be a time lag about how we could interpret and display them in the National Roman Legion Museum or in some other way. There is a conversation to be had and I would be happy to have it with the Member and with his party on what the future of Caerleon may hold, given the treasures that keep on surfacing in that special part of Wales.

Huw Lewis: Nid yw hynny’n gwestiwn anghyffredin i’w ofyn. Mae Caerllion yn prysur ddod yn un o’r lleoedd a gloddiwyd mwyaf, a ddeallwyd mwyaf ac yn un o’r lleoedd mwyaf cyffrous o’r hen ymerodraeth Rufeinig y gallai un ymweld ag ef unrhyw le yn Ewrop i ddysgu am yr agwedd honno ar ein treftadaeth. Mae’r darganfyddiadau newydd yn golygu y byddai oedi ynghylch sut y gallem eu dehongli a’u harddangos yn Amgueddfa Lleng Rufeinig Cymru neu mewn rhyw ffordd arall. Mae sgwrs i’w gael a byddwn yn hapus i’w gael gyda’r Aelod a gyda ei blaid ar yr hyn y gall dyfodol Caerllion ei ddal, o ystyried y trysorau sy’n parhau i ymddangos yn y rhan arbennig hwnnw o Gymru.

Pwynt o Drefn
Point of Order

Jeff Cuthbert: Before the summer recess, the Presiding Officer issued a reminder to all Assembly Members that they must always describe themselves accurately, and not in a way that could cause confusion to the electorate. During a supplementary question to the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development, Lindsay Whittle AM referred to the town of Ystrad Mynach as being in his constituency. Of course, he should have said ‘region’. I am sure that it was nothing more than a slip of the tongue, because Ystrad Mynach is in the Caerphilly constituency for which I am the elected Member. I ask you to take this opportunity, Deputy Presiding Officer, to remind all Members of this requirement as set down by the Presiding Officer.

Jeff Cuthbert: Cyn toriad yr haf, cyhoeddodd y Llywydd nodyn i atgoffa holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad bod yn rhaid iddynt bob amser ddisgrifio eu hunain yn gywir, ac nid mewn ffordd a allai beri dryswch i’r etholwyr. Yn ystod cwestiwn atodol i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy, cyfeiriodd Lindsay Whittle AC at dref Ystrad Mynach fel rhan o’i etholaeth ef. Wrth gwrs, dylai fod wedi dweud ‘rhanbarth’. Mae’n siŵr gennyf nad oedd yn ddim mwy na llithriad tafod, gan fod Ystrad Mynach yn etholaeth Caerffili a fi yw Aelod etholedig Caerffili. Yr wyf yn gofyn i chi gymryd y cyfle hwn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, i atgoffa pob Aelod o’r gofyniad hwn fel y nodwyd gan y Llywydd.

Lindsay Whittle: As a personal explanation, I hope that the Record will show that I said ‘in Ystrad Mynach in my south-east Wales constituency’. However, Jeff Cuthbert is right to point out that I should have used the word ‘region’. It is splitting hairs a little, but he is right. I also apologise to the Minister, who I think also referred in his reply to the dog track in Ystrad Mynach as being in my constituency. I would not have wanted to involve the Minister in this row. [Laughter.] I guess, Minister, that you were taking my lead on that issue, and I withdraw the remark and apologise to the Chamber. I shall certainly never do this again, ever. [Laughter.]

Lindsay Whittle: Fel eglurhad personol, yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Cofnod yn dangos fy mod wedi dweud ‘yn Ystrad Mynach yn fy etholaeth yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru’. Fodd bynnag, mae Jeff Cuthbert yn iawn i dynnu sylw at y ffaith y dylwn fod wedi defnyddio’r gair ‘rhanbarth’. Hollti blew yw hynny braidd, ond mae’n iawn. Rwyf hefyd yn ymddiheuro i’r Gweinidog, a oedd hefyd, rwy’n meddwl, wedi cyfeirio yn ei ymateb i’r trac cŵn yn Ystrad Mynach fel petai yn fy etholaeth i. Ni fyddwn wedi dymuno cynnwys y Gweinidog yn y ffrae hon. [Chwerthin.] Mae’n debyg, Weinidog, eich bod chi’n dilyn fy esiampl i ar y mater hwnnw, ac yr wyf yn tynnu’r sylw yn ôl ac yn ymddiheuro i’r Siambr. Yn sicr, ni fyddaf byth yn gwneud hyn eto. [Chwerthin.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I remind the Chamber and all Members that it is not a matter of splitting hairs when the Presiding Officer has ruled on this subject. Members are required to be clear. An inadvertent misuse will be dealt with with some leniency, but any deliberate confusion will not be permitted. I remind Members that Standing Order No. 1.10 is clear on this, as is the ‘Code on the Different Roles and Responsibilities of Constituency Members and Regional Members’, which explains how Members may describe themselves. It says that

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Atgoffaf y Siambr a’r holl Aelodau nad yw’n fater o hollti blew pan fydd y Llywydd wedi dyfarnu ar y pwnc hwn. Mae gofyn i Aelodau fod yn glir. Ymdrinnir â chamddefnydd anfwriadol gyda pheth trugaredd ond ni fydd unrhyw ddryswch bwriadol yn cael ei ganiatáu. Atgoffaf yr Aelodau bod Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 1.10 yn glir ar hyn, fel y mae’r ‘Cod ar Rolau a Chyfrifoldebau Gwahanol Aelodau Etholaeth ac Aelodau Rhanbarthol’, sy’n egluro sut y gall Aelodau ddisgrifio eu hunain. Mae’n dweud bod

‘regional Members and constituency Members must describe themselves accurately so as not to confuse those with whom they deal’.

‘Rhaid i Aelodau rhanbarthol ac Aelodau etholaeth eu disgrifio’u hunain yn gywir fel nad ydynt yn drysu’r unigolion y maent yn ymdrin â hwy.’

Lindsay Whittle is a Member for the South Wales East region, and not a Member for a constituency. That matter has to be borne in mind if it ever occurs again. I remind Members that they must be accurate in how they refer to themselves. Any attempt to take this with a degree of levity will not be permitted by the Presiding Officer or me, if I am deputising.

Mae Lindsay Whittle yn Aelod ar gyfer rhanbarth Dwyrain De Cymru, ac nid yn Aelod dros etholaeth. Mae’r mater wedi cael ei gadw mewn cof os yw byth yn digwydd eto. Hoffwn atgoffa’r Aelodau bod yn rhaid iddynt fod yn gywir yn y modd y maent yn cyfeirio atynt eu hunain. Ni chaniateir unrhyw ymgais i gymryd hyn gyda rhywfaint o ysgafnder gan y Llywydd neu gennyf fi, os wyf yn dirprwyo.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives Debate

Busnesau
Businesses

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Peter Black.

Cynnig NDM4810 William Graham

Motion NDM4810 William Graham

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To Propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i

Calls on the Welsh Government to

a) Cydnabod potensial busnesau bach a chanolig i dyfu economi Cymru;

a) Recognise the potential of small and medium sized businesses to grow the Welsh economy;

b) Creu’r amodau angenrheidiol ar gyfer mwy o weithgarwch entrepreneuraidd yng Nghymru; ac

b) Create the conditions needed for increased entrepreneurial activity in Wales; and

c) Cynnig cymorth sy’n diwallu anghenion busnesau.

c) Offer support that meets the needs of businesses.

Nick Ramsay: I move the motion.

Nick Ramsay: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

With the economic challenges currently facing the world economy, the Welsh Conservatives believe that it is important to recognise the role that a key sector of our economy, namely entrepreneurs, has to play in helping to rebuild and grow the Welsh economy.

Gyda’r heriau economaidd sydd ar hyn o bryd yn wynebu economi’r byd, cred y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ei bod yn bwysig cydnabod y rôl y mae sector allweddol o’n heconomi, sef entrepreneuriaid, yn ei chwarae wrth helpu i ail-adeiladu a thyfu economi Cymru.

Entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of any economy. They come up with the ideas, the drive and the commitment to develop and to grow their product or business. Other sectors of the economy benefit accordingly. They often start off small but develop. They are often mobile and not fixed to one geographical area, but will move to where the conditions are best suited to their business. Entrepreneurs do not generally rely on Government support, they want guidance, but they also do not want to be tied down by red tape and form-filling.

Entrepreneuriaid yw asgwrn cefn unrhyw economi. Maent yn dod o hyd i syniadau, yr ymdrech a’r ymrwymiad i ddatblygu ac i dyfu eu cynnyrch neu fusnes. Mae sectorau eraill o’r economi yn elwa yn unol â hynny. Maent yn aml yn dechrau’n fach ond yn datblygu. Maent yn aml yn symudol ac nid ydynt yn sefydlog i un ardal ddaearyddol, ond byddant yn symud i le mae’r amodau mwyaf addas ar gyfer eu busnes. Nid yw entrepreneuriaid yn gyffredinol yn dibynnu ar gefnogaeth y Llywodraeth, maent am arweiniad, ond nid ydynt am fod yn gaeth i dâp coch biwrocratiaeth a llenwi ffurflenni.

We are calling on the Welsh Government to create the conditions for entrepreneurs to grow and increase their activity in Wales, to offer the support that business needs to develop and to recognise the potential of small and medium-sized businesses to grow the Welsh economy.

Rydym yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i greu’r amodau ar gyfer entrepreneuriaid i dyfu a chynyddu eu gweithgarwch yng Nghymru, i gynnig y cymorth y mae ar fusnesau ei angen i ddatblygu ac i gydnabod potensial busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint i dyfu economi Cymru.

A number of key themes will run through this debate. At root, the Welsh Conservatives do not believe that the Welsh Government has always understood and recognised the needs of businesses sufficiently. We do not believe that the Welsh Government has always listened to businesses in a way that is most beneficial to them. We also do not believe that the Welsh Government has the confidence among Welsh small and medium-sized businesses to encourage their growth in the way that we would like them to do.

Bydd nifer o themâu allweddol yn rhedeg drwy’r ddadl hon. Yn y bôn, nid yw’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn credu bod Llywodraeth Cymru bob amser wedi deall a chydnabod anghenion busnesau yn ddigonol. Nid ydym yn credu bod Llywodraeth Cymru bob amser wedi gwrando ar fusnesau yn y ffordd sydd fwyaf buddiol iddynt. Nid ydym ychwaith yn credu bod gan Lywodraeth Cymru hyder ymysg busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint i annog eu twf yn y ffordd yr hoffem iddynt ei wneud.

Do not just take our word for it. The Welsh Federation of Small Businesses stated that the last Labour manifesto ‘largely ignored SMEs’. To quote some figures, according to the Office for National Statistics, the birth rate of Welsh businesses was the third lowest of the UK nations and regions in 2009. In April 2010, the University of Wales Institute, Cardiff’s competitiveness index found that Wales had slipped to the last place in the UK. Private sector employment over the past 12 months has fallen by 35,000 according to figures published earlier this month by the Centre for Cities. These figures demonstrate the position in which we now find ourselves. Entrepreneurs are not starting up businesses, and Welsh competitiveness is slipping. We need to make Wales an attractive and worthwhile place to start up, to develop and to run a business. In fact, the Minister recognised this last week at Cardiff Business Club, where, during a speech to which I was listening attentively, she said that Wales needs to make more money. I think that we all agree with that.

Peidiwch â chymryd ein gair ni. Dywedodd y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach fod y maniffesto Llafur diwethaf i raddau helaeth yn anwybyddu busnesau bach a chanolig. I ddyfynnu rhai ffigurau, yn ôl y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, cyfradd genedigaethau busnesau Cymru oedd y trydydd isaf o blith gwledydd a rhanbarthau’r DU yn 2009. Ym mis Ebrill 2010, canfu mynegai cystadleurwydd Athrofa Prifysgol Cymru, Caerdydd fod Cymru wedi llithro i’r lle olaf yn y DU. Mae cyflogaeth yn y sector preifat dros y 12 mis diwethaf wedi gostwng 35,000 yn ôl ffigyrau a gyhoeddwyd yn gynharach y mis hwn gan y Centre for Cities. Mae’r ffigurau hyn yn dangos y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw entrepreneuriaid yn dechrau busnesau, ac y mae cystadleurwydd Cymru yn llithro. Mae angen i ni wneud Cymru yn le deniadol a gwerthfawr i gychwyn, i ddatblygu ac i redeg busnes. Yn wir, cydnabu’r Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf yng Nghlwb Busnes Caerdydd, lle, yn ystod araith yr oeddwn yn gwrando’n astud arno, dywedodd fod angen i Gymru wneud mwy o arian. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn cytuno â hynny.

Let us move on to the important role that SMEs play in the Welsh economy. Ninety-eight per cent of businesses in Wales had fewer than 50 employees in 2010. In the seven years from 2003, 70 per cent of all employment growth in Wales came from SMEs. From that, it is clear that a successful SME sector is key to growing and developing the economy. Therefore, the unclear direction in which the Welsh Government has sometimes appeared to be heading when it comes to this portion of the economy is even more surprising. Back in 2005, the then Welsh Assembly Government called time on the entrepreneurship action plan, leading the director of the South Wales Chamber of Commerce to state that support for entrepreneurs had decreased significantly since the demise of the EAP.

Gadewch inni symud ymlaen at y rôl bwysig y mae busnesau bach a chanolig yn ei chwarae yn economi Cymru. Roedd gan 98 y cant o fusnesau yng Nghymru lai na 50 o weithwyr yn 2010. Yn y saith mlynedd o 2003, daeth 70 y cant o’r holl dwf cyflogaeth yng Nghymru o fusnesau bach a chanolig. O hynny, mae’n amlwg bod sector busnesau bach a chanolig llwyddiannus yn allweddol er mwyn tyfu a datblygu’r economi. Felly, mae’r cyfeiriad aneglur y mae’n ymddangos bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn teithio iddo weithiau pan ddaw i’r gyfran hon o’r economi yn hyd yn oedd yn fwy o syndod. Yn ôl yn 2005, bu i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar y pryd roi terfyn ar y cynllun gweithredu entrepreneuriaeth, gan arwain at gyfarwyddwr Siambr Fasnach De Cymru yn nodi bod cefnogaeth ar gyfer entrepreneuriaid wedi gostwng yn sylweddol ers tranc y cynllun gweithredu entrepreneuriaeth.

Joyce Watson: Thank you for giving way. You have given an awful lot of statistics, but I would like you to tell me whether you have at your disposal the statistic of how many SMEs are dependent on public sector investment.

Joyce Watson: Diolch ichi am ildio. Yr ydych wedi rhoi llawer iawn o ystadegau, ond hoffwn i chi ddweud wrthyf a oes gennych yr ystadegyn o faint o fusnesau bach a chanolig sy’n dibynnu ar fuddsoddiad gan y sector cyhoeddus.

Nick Ramsay: I do not have that at my disposal, I am afraid, but perhaps the Minister does, Joyce Watson. I see where you are coming from: you are talking about current cuts from Westminster and the effect that that might have. All that I would say is that there will always be consequences when funds are being cut. The UK Government has taken the decision that it is important to get the deficit down. I happen to think that the deficit has to be reduced; others in the Chamber do not agree, but the purpose of this debate is not to rerun that argument. However, I heard what you said.

Nick Ramsay: Nid yw hwnnw ar gael i mi, mae arnaf ofn, ond efallai ei fod gan y Gweinidog, Joyce Watson. Rwy’n deall eich pwynt: yr ydych yn sôn am doriadau presennol o San Steffan a’r effaith y gallai hynny ei gael. Y cyfan y byddwn yn ei ddweud yw y bydd bob amser canlyniadau pan fydd arian yn cael ei dorri. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi cymryd y penderfyniad ei bod yn bwysig lleihau’r diffyg mewn cyllid. Yr wyf yn digwydd credu bod yn rhaid i’r diffyg gael ei leihau. Nid yw eraill yn y Siambr yn cytuno, ond nid ail-gynnal y ddadl honno yw pwrpas y ddadl hon. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn clywed yr hyn a ddywedasoch.

As I said before, according to the FSB, the 2011 Labour manifesto ‘largely ignored’ small businesses, and the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors Wales said that there was an inherent suspicion of developers and entrepreneurs within the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government has also been accused of excessive regulation and being too keen to use legislative and regulatory powers that affect business competitiveness.

Fel y dywedais o’r blaen, yn ôl y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, gwnaeth maniffesto Llafur anwybyddu i raddau helaeth fusnesau bach, a dywedodd Sefydliad Brenhinol y Syrfewyr Siartredig yng Nghymru fod yna amheuaeth gynhenid o ddatblygwyr ac entrepreneuriaid o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru hefyd wedi cael ei chyhuddo o reoleiddio gormodol a bod yn rhy awyddus i ddefnyddio pwerau deddfwriaethol a rheoliadol sy’n effeithio ar gystadleurwydd busnes.

So, what can be done to help, develop and encourage entrepreneurs and SMEs in Wales? The Welsh Conservative election manifesto pledged to abolish business rates for businesses with a rateable value of up to £12,000 and to taper relief for those with a rateable value of between £12,000 and £15,000. We estimate that that would take approximately 73 per cent of business premises out of rates and that the tapered relief would benefit an additional 5 per cent. The FSB annual survey of 2011 said that 43 per cent of members supported a reduction in business rates. Even if the Government does not choose to follow our line to take those businesses out of business rates, businesses would appreciate a change of direction from the Government regarding some of the tapered support that might be given to businesses across the spectrum.

Felly, beth a ellir ei wneud i helpu, datblygu ac annog entrepreneuriaid a busnesau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru? Mae maniffesto etholiadol y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn addo diddymu ardrethi busnes ar gyfer busnesau sydd â gwerth ardrethol o hyd at £12,000 ac i feinhau cymorth ar gyfer y rhai sydd â gwerth ardrethol o rhwng £12,000 a £15,000. Rydym yn amcangyfrif y byddai hynny’n cymryd oddeutu 73 y cant o eiddo busnes allan o ardrethi ac y byddai’r cymorth wedi’i feinhau o fudd i 5 y cant ychwanegol. Dywedodd arolwg blynyddol y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach 2011 fod 43 y cant o aelodau yn cefnogi gostyngiad mewn ardrethi busnes. Hyd yn oed os nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn dewis cytuno â ni a thynnu’r busnesau hynny allan o ardrethi busnes, byddai busnesau yn gwerthfawrogi newid cyfeiriad gan y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â pheth o’r cymorth wedi’i feinhau y gellid ei roi i fusnesau ar draws y sbectrwm.

I say categorically that we welcome last week’s announcement on enterprise zones. I was delighted when I heard the Minister make the statement on the five new enterprise zones. That was welcome. We remain concerned on this side of the Chamber about the belated nature of the announcement. Had it been made earlier, perhaps Wales would have been in a better position economically. We saw the loss of the Jaguar Land Rover plant only recently, although I know that the Minister has different views about that. Nonetheless, there is a perception that not having action on enterprise zones earlier caused the problem. However, we are where we are, and I fully welcome what the Government is doing. It is necessary. There will be enterprise zones over the border in England and we need them here now. I am glad that we are getting them.

Yr wyf yn dweud yn bendant ein bod yn croesawu cyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf ar ardaloedd menter. Roeddwn wrth fy modd pan glywais y Gweinidog yn gwneud y datganiad ar y pum ardal fenter newydd. Roedd hwnnw i’w groesawu. Rydym yn parhau i fod yn bryderus ar ochr hon y Siambr ynghylch natur hwyr y cyhoeddiad. Petai wedi’i wneud yn gynharach, efallai y byddai Cymru wedi bod mewn sefyllfa well yn economaidd. Collasom ffatri Jaguar Land Rover ddim ond yn ddiweddar, er y gwn bod gan y Gweinidog farn wahanol am hynny. Serch hynny, mae yna ganfyddiad bod diffyg gweithredu yn gynharach ar ardaloedd menter wedi achosi’r broblem. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym lle’r ydym, a chroesawaf yn llwyr yr hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud. Mae’n angenrheidiol. Bydd parthau menter dros y ffin yn Lloegr, ac mae arnom eu hangen yma nawr. Yr wyf yn falch ein bod yn eu cael.

We should aim to encourage enterprise from an early time and we pledged to require all secondary schools to set up social enterprises to be managed and run by pupils. This should work to develop a new generation of entrepreneurs across the country. The scheme to bring superfast broadband to 90 per cent of Wales, announced by David Cameron in July 2011, and match funded by the Welsh Government, will be key to helping small businesses grow. By improving the infrastructure, we will be making it easier for Wales to do business.

Dylem anelu at annog mentergarwch o gyfnod cynnar ac rydym yn addo mynnu bod pob ysgol uwchradd yn sefydlu mentrau cymdeithasol i gael eu rheoli a’u rhedeg gan y disgyblion. Dylai hyn weithio i ddatblygu cenhedlaeth newydd o entrepreneuriaid ar draws y wlad. Mae’r cynllun i ddod â band eang cyflym iawn i 90 y cant o Gymru, a gyhoeddwyd gan David Cameron ym mis Gorffennaf 2011, ac arian cyfatebol gan Lywodraeth Cymru, yn allweddol i helpu busnesau bach i dyfu. Drwy wella’r seilwaith, byddwn yn ei gwneud yn haws i Gymru i wneud busnes.

3.15 p.m.

Finally, I move on to the matter of developing support that meets the needs of businesses. There is no doubt that we need to encourage closer working between the public and private sectors. That ties into Joyce Watson’s intervention earlier; there is a clear link between those two areas. The creation of a stronger council for economic renewal—an enterprise Wales—would give the private sector a larger role in public policy. That could only benefit the private and public sectors. Through business support being contracted out, private sector expertise would help to provide valuable support and advice based on real-world experience. It is vital that we get our business policies right and that the Welsh Government changes tack to ensure that the needs of small and medium-sized enterprises and entrepreneurs are recognised and supported.

Yn olaf, yr wyf yn symud ymlaen at y mater o ddatblygu cymorth sy’n diwallu anghenion busnesau. Nid oes amheuaeth bod angen i ni annog cydweithio agosach rhwng y sectorau cyhoeddus a phreifat. Mae hynny’n cysylltu ag ymyrraeth Joyce Watson yn gynharach; mae cysylltiad clir rhwng y ddau faes. Byddai creu cyngor cryfach ar gyfer adnewyddu’r economi—menter Cymru—yn rhoi mwy o rôl i’r sector breifat mewn polisi cyhoeddus. Gallai hynny dim ond fod o fudd i’r sectorau preifat a chyhoeddus. Trwy gontractio allan cymorth ar gyfer busnes, byddai arbenigedd y sector preifat yn helpu i ddarparu cefnogaeth a chyngor gwerthfawr yn seiliedig ar brofiad y byd go iawn. Mae’n hanfodol inni gael ein polisïau busnes yn iawn a bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn newid tac i sicrhau bod anghenion busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint ac entrepreneuriaid yn cael eu cydnabod a’u cefnogi.

I have considered the First Minister’s statement yesterday, and listened closely to what the Minister for business and enterprise has said in committee. I am pleased that the Government seems to acknowledge the need to support the entrepreneurial sector. I hope that the Government agrees that this motion has been written in a way that allows us to move forward and make suggestions as to how we can grow the private sector in Wales, which we all need to do. However, if we want to grow the private sector we have to recognise the valuable part that entrepreneurs and the entrepreneurial sector play in it.

Yr wyf wedi ystyried datganiad y Prif Weinidog ddoe, ac wedi gwrando’n astud ar yr hyn y mae’r Gweinidog busnes a menter wedi ei ddweud yn y pwyllgor. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Llywodraeth yn ymddangos fel petai’n cydnabod yr angen i gefnogi’r sector entrepreneuraidd. Gobeithio y bydd y Llywodraeth yn cytuno bod y cynnig hwn wedi cael ei ysgrifennu mewn ffordd sy’n ein galluogi i symud ymlaen a gwneud awgrymiadau ynghylch sut y gallwn dyfu’r sector preifat yng Nghymru, y mae angen i ni i gyd ei wneud. Fodd bynnag, os ydym am dyfu’r sector preifat, mae’n rhaid i ni gydnabod y rhan werthfawr y mae entrepreneuriaid a’r sector entrepreneuraidd yn eu chwarae.

I made a point yesterday during the First Minister’s statement, although I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, that you cannot always measure the outcomes of investment in the entrepreneurial sector in the way that you can for larger companies. However, there is no doubt that if you want to encourage innovation and the future of the economy, then you have to start with the small building block that is the entrepreneur—who is often working on his or her own with scant resources. It is not always a question of money; it is also about openness. Recently, you gave me a commitment, Minister, that you would endeavour to ensure that your department will be as open as possible in dealing with entrepreneurs and people seeking to start up businesses. If those people do not get the advice that they want at the early stages of establishing their business, many of them will look elsewhere within the UK or to other countries. Wales has lost out in that way in the past. I hope that that will not happen again. I commend the motion to Members.

Gwneuthum bwynt ddoe yn ystod datganiad y Prif Weinidog, er mae’n debyg nad oeddwn wedi’i wneud mor glir ag y gallwn, na allwch bob amser fesur canlyniadau buddsoddiad yn y sector entrepreneuraidd yn y ffordd y gallwch ar gyfer cwmnïau mwy. Fodd bynnag, nid oes amheuaeth, os ydych am annog arloesedd a dyfodol yr economi, mae’n rhaid i chi ddechrau gyda’r bloc adeiladu bach, sef yr entrepreneur—sydd yn aml yn gweithio ar ei ben ei hun neu ar ei phen ei hun gydag adnoddau prin. Nid mater o arian ydyw bob amser; mae hefyd yn ymwneud â bod yn agored. Yn ddiweddar, rhoesoch imi ymrwymiad, Weinidog, y byddech yn ceisio sicrhau y bydd eich adran mor agored ag y bo modd wrth ymdrin â entrepreneuriaid a phobl sydd am gychwyn busnesau. Os nad yw’r bobl hynny’n cael y cyngor y mae arnynt ei eisiau yn ystod y camau cynnar o sefydlu eu busnes, bydd llawer ohonynt yn edrych yn rhywle arall yn y DU neu i wledydd eraill. Mae Cymru wedi colli allan yn y modd hwnnw yn y gorffennol. Gobeithiaf na fydd yn digwydd eto. Cymeradwyaf y cynnig i’r Aelodau.

Gwelliant 1 Peter Black

Amendment 1 Peter Black

Ym mhwynt b, ar ôl ‘Nghymru’ rhoi ‘drwy, ymysg pethau eraill, leihau’r beichiau rheoleiddio ar fusnesau, datblygu Cronfa Arloesi a chynnig grantiau hyfforddi i fusnesau sy’n cyflogi pobl ifanc ddi-waith.’

In point b, after ‘Wales’ insert ‘by, among other things, reducing regulatory burdens on businesses, developing an Innovation Fund and offering training grants to businesses taking on young unemployed people.’

Eluned Parrott: I move amendment 1 in the name of Peter Black.

Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Peter Black.

I think that we would all agree that there is little to disagree with in this motion. However, it is a skinny dog debate; there is no flesh on this poor creature’s bones. There is no context. The reason why we have put forward our amendment is that we want to introduce the elements that might help to create the positive conditions that you talk about in your motion. I would like to talk about why we are reliant on small and medium-sized enterprises in this country. There is no question that we are so reliant; we have a strong reliance on companies of that kind. My question is: is that a failure? Is it because small and medium-sized enterprises do not have the opportunity to grow into medium and large-sized enterprises? Should we be trying to find out whether that is an issue that we need to address?

Credaf y byddem oll yn cytuno nad oes fawr i anghytuno ag ef yn y cynnig hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae’n ddadl cŵn tenau; nid oes unrhyw gnawd ar esgyrn y creadur tlawd. Nid oes unrhyw gyd-destun. Y rheswm pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno ein gwelliant yw ein bod am gyflwyno’r elfennau a allai helpu creu’r amodau cadarnhaol yr ydych yn sôn amdano yn eich cynnig. Hoffwn siarad am pam yr ydym yn dibynnu ar fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yn y wlad hon. Nid oes unrhyw amheuaeth ein bod mor ddibynnol; mae gennym ddibyniaeth gref ar gwmnïau o’r math hwnnw. Fy nghwestiwn yw: ai methiant yw hwnnw? A ydyw oherwydd nad yw busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yn cael y cyfle i dyfu i fod yn fentrau canolig a mawr eu maint? Dylem fod yn ceisio darganfod a ydyw hynny’n fater y mae angen inni roi sylw iddo?

With regard to what gets in the way of enterprises that want to grow, the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses tell us frequently that they struggle with regulation. The smallest companies, in particular, lack the specialist staff that can help them meet regulations in relation to human resources, taxation, and even carrier bag charges and the value added tax circumstances relating to them. These are all problems for the smallest companies because they do not have a legal team to talk to or a human resources team to get advice from. We need to recognise and be sensitive to that. Successive research shows that regulation is a problem. The Clydesdale Bank research that I have in front of me states that 18 per cent of the people asked said that they had seriously struggled to meet regulations; 10 per cent said that they had missed a VAT payment and had been fined as a result, and 20 per cent said that they did not know who to ask if they wanted to find out more about regulations. Therefore, it is a problem and we need to tackle in a real and practical sense how we are regulating our businesses and whether we can streamline regulation to make it simpler for them.

O ran yr hyn sy’n rhwystro mentrau sydd eisiau tyfu, mae Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain a’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yn dweud wrthym yn aml eu bod yn cael trafferth â rheoliad. Mae’r cwmnïau lleiaf, yn arbennig, yn brin o’r staff arbenigol sy’n gallu eu helpu i fodloni rheoliadau mewn perthynas ag adnoddau dynol, trethi, a hyd yn oed taliadau am fagiau siopa un-tro a’r amgylchiadau treth ar werth sy’n gysylltiedig â hwy. Mae’r rhain i gyd yn broblemau ar gyfer y cwmnïau lleiaf oherwydd nad oes ganddynt dîm cyfreithiol i siarad ag ef neu dîm adnoddau dynol i gael cyngor ganddo. Mae angen i ni gydnabod a bod yn sensitif i hynny. Dengys ymchwil olynol bod rheoleiddio yn broblem. Mae ymchwil Clydesdale Bank, sydd gennyf o’m blaen, yn datgan bod 18 y cant o’r bobl a ofynnwyd yn dweud eu bod wedi cael trafferth ddifrifol i fodloni’r rheoliadau; dywedodd 10 y cant eu bod wedi colli taliad TAW ac wedi cael dirwy o ganlyniad, a dywedodd 20 y cant nad oeddent yn gwybod i bwy i ofyn os oedd arnynt eisiau gwybod mwy am y rheoliadau. Felly, mae’n broblem ac mae angen i ni fynd i’r afael, mewn ystyr real ac ymarferol, â sut yr ydym yn rheoleiddio ein busnesau ac a allwn symleiddio rheoleiddio i’w gwneud yn haws iddynt.

The second thing that we have suggested in our amendment is the creation of an innovation fund. We are looking at something along the lines of seed corn funding that could help to turn ideas, from universities or entrepreneurs, into viable businesses, and help to build the infrastructure and training that they need. Training is a crucial factor and I will be talking about it in the Liberal Democrat debate later. If you speak to the Confederation of British Industry, as I did yesterday, it will tell you that school and university leavers are not equipped with the work skills that it needs. Therefore, those kinds of skill sets need to be addressed. If the perception exists that our young people are not a good workforce, then that is a disincentive for people to expand and to develop their workforce.

Yr ail beth a awgrymwyd gennym yn ein gwelliant yw creu cronfa arloesedd. Rydym yn edrych ar rywbeth tebyg i gyllid sbarduno a allai helpu i droi syniadau, o brifysgolion neu entrepreneuriaid, yn fusnesau hyfyw, a helpu i adeiladu’r seilwaith a’r hyfforddiant y mae arnynt eu hangen. Mae hyfforddiant yn ffactor hanfodol a byddaf yn siarad am y peth yn nadl y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ddiweddarach. Os byddwch yn siarad â Chydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain, fel y gwneuthum ddoe, bydd yn dweud wrthych nad yw’r rhai sy’n gadael ysgol a’r brifysgol yn meddu ar y sgiliau gwaith y mae eu hangen. Felly, mae angen mynd i’r afael â’r mathau hynny o sgiliau. Os bydd y canfyddiad yn bodoli nad yw ein pobl ifanc yn weithlu da, yna mae hynny’n ddatgymhelliad i bobl i ehangu a datblygu eu gweithlu.

Those are the three critical areas that we need to consider. We support the Welsh Conservatives’ motion fully, and take on board entirely the points that they make, but we ask them to broaden out the detail a little for us.

Dyna’r tri maes allweddol y mae angen inni eu hystyried. Rydym yn cefnogi cynnig y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn llwyr, ac yn ystyried yn gyfan gwbl y pwyntiau a wnânt, ond rydym yn gofyn iddynt ehangu’r manylion ychydig i ni.

Suzy Davies: Diolch am y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y drafodaeth hon. Efallai bod economi gymysg a chytbwys, un sy’n debygol o wrthsefyll ymosodiad ac atal trawiad pendant rhag bod yn ergyd farwol, yn swnio fel breuddwyd gwrach. Er mwyn helpu i ail-gydbwyso ein heconomi, rhaid i ni wneud lle ar gyfer buddsoddi o’r tu allan, ond hefyd ar gyfer busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint hyderus o’r sector preifat a’r trydydd sector, yn ogystal â’r sector cyhoeddus.

Suzy Davies: Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this debate. A mixed and balanced economy, one that is likely to withstand an assault and prevent a definite hit from becoming a fatal blow, may sound like wishful thinking. In order to rebalance our economy, we must make room for external investment, but also for confident small and medium-sized enterprises in the private and voluntary sectors, as well as the public sector.

Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru yn iawn mewn dwy ffordd. Yn gyntaf, mae’n iawn bod angen y sgiliau addas ac, yn ail, mae’n iawn na all Llywodraeth Llafur Cymru ddatrys ein holl broblemau economaidd. Yr hyn y gall ei wneud yw newid y ffordd y mae’n ymyrryd. Mae gan fusnesau bach a chanolig eu maint botensial i greu cyfoeth i dyfu economi Cymru, ac mae ganddynt hefyd y potensial i ryddhau entrepreneuriaid a fydd yn creu ac yn bwydo economi gynaliadwy Cymru—un gymysg, cytbwys, hyderus a deniadol. Mae angen iddynt gael rhyddid i wneud y cyfraniadau hyn, ac i’w gyrru a’u harwain, ac nid dod yn gangen gyflawni yn unig ar gyfer polisi a ddyfeisiwyd ym mharc Cathays.

The First Minister is right in two ways. First, he is right that we need the appropriate skills, and, secondly, he is right that the Labour Welsh Government cannot solve all our economic problems. What it can do is change the way in which it intervenes. Small and medium-sized enterprises have the potential to generate wealth to grow the Welsh economy, and they also have the potential to free up entrepreneurs who will create and feed a sustainable economy in Wales—one that is mixed, balanced, confident and attractive. They must be given the freedom to make these contributions, and to drive and to lead them, and not just become a delivery branch for policy drawn up in Cathays park.

A mixed and balanced economy can be assisted by identifying and providing the skills needed in a broader range of sectors. Time and again, we hear that students leave further and higher education with knowledge and skills that are not what employers are looking for. The chief executive officer of a medium-sized engineering firm in my region explained that he is happy to take on appropriately qualified graduates from the local further education college. However, he is not happy to find that their training is not addressing the needs and challenges of his business, and that students arrive without soft workplace skills. As a result, he has, effectively, designed his own apprenticeship scheme. What he should also be doing is designing the college course.

Gall economi cymysg a chytbwys gael ei gynorthwyo gan nodi a darparu’r sgiliau y mae eu hangen mewn ystod ehangach o sectorau. Dro ar ôl tro, clywn fod myfyrwyr yn gadael addysg bellach ac uwch gyda gwybodaeth a sgiliau nad yw’r cyflogwyr yn chwilio amdanynt. Eglurodd prif swyddog gweithredol cwmni peirianneg o faint canolig yn fy rhanbarth ei fod yn barod i gymryd graddedigion â chymwysterau priodol gan y coleg addysg bellach lleol. Fodd bynnag, nid oedd yn hapus i ddarganfod nad oedd eu hyfforddiant yn mynd i’r afael ag anghenion a heriau ei fusnes, a bod myfyrwyr yn cyrraedd heb sgiliau meddal yn y gweithle. O ganlyniad, mae wedi, i bob pwrpas, cynllunio ei gynllun prentisiaeth ei hun. Beth y dylai hefyd fod yn ei wneud yw cynllunio’r cwrs coleg.

In the University of Glamorgan, some of Wales’s biggest private-sector employers, including BT, Logica, Ford and Sainsbury’s, have developed an information technology management for business degree. They have recognised that businesses need much greater influence over how young people are trained. The same principle surely applies to small and medium-sized enterprises in the private and third sector. They must be centrally involved in the development of vocational qualifications and apprenticeship schemes.

Ym Mhrifysgol Morgannwg, mae rhai o gyflogwyr sector preifat mwyaf Cymru, gan gynnwys BT, Logica, Ford a Sainsbury, wedi datblygu gradd rheoli technoleg gwybodaeth ar gyfer busnes. Maent wedi cydnabod bod angen llawer mwy o ddylanwad gan fusnesau ar sut y mae pobl ifanc yn cael eu hyfforddi. Mae’r un egwyddor yn sicr yn berthnasol i fentrau bach a chanolig eu maint yn y sector preifat a’r trydydd sector. Rhaid iddynt gael rhan ganolog yn natblygiad cymwysterau galwedigaethol a chynlluniau prentisiaeth.

David Rees: I worked in Swansea Metropolitan University previously, and we were involved in producing courses in collaboration with the SMEs in subject areas. Do you not agree that it is good practice to encourage SMEs to become part of liaison groups within universities and higher education and to develop programmes that are applicable to the vocations relating to those subject areas?

David Rees: Bûm yn gweithio ym Mhrifysgol Fetropolitan Abertawe yn flaenorol, ac yr oeddem yn cynhyrchu cyrsiau mewn cydweithrediad â busnesau bach a chanolig mewn meysydd pwnc. Onid ydych yn cytuno ei bod yn arfer da i annog busnesau bach a chanolig i ddod yn rhan o grwpiau cyswllt mewn prifysgolion ac addysg uwch a datblygu rhaglenni sy’n berthnasol i’r galwedigaethau sy’n ymwneud â’r meysydd pwnc hynny?

Suzy Davies: Thank you for that intervention. I certainly agree, and what I am trying to convey today is that SMEs should have more of a role in that regard and become the driving force in the creation of those courses, and not just partners who are not always encouraged to take part in the way that they are in Swansea Metropolitan University.

Suzy Davies: Diolch ichi am yr ymyriad. Yr wyf yn sicr yn cytuno, a’r hyn yr wyf yn ceisio ei gyfleu heddiw yw y dylai busnesau bach a chanolig gael mwy o rôl yn hynny o beth a sbarduno’r broses o greu, yn hytrach na bod yn ddim ond partneriaid nad ydynt yn cael eu hannog bob amser i gymryd rhan yn y ffordd y maent ym Mhrifysgol Fetropolitan Abertawe.

A mixed and balanced economy will not be sustainable unless we move forward in a broader range of sectors. That will not happen unless we have a confident and entrepreneurial ethos embedded in our psyche from an early age. Just two days ago, Sir Brian Souter, the chief executive officer of transport firm Stagecoach, stated that entrepreneurs are the engine room of the economy and that more needs to be done to nurture new business talent at an early age. He is now in a three-year partnership with the Enterprise Education Trust, providing business awareness training to hundreds of 16 to 19-year-olds, helping them to understand business and its role in the economy. The interim research that prompted this partnership showed that, beforehand, only a third of 14 to 19-year-olds had a positive impression of business. Afterwards, the figure rose to 98 per cent.

Ni fydd economi gymysg a chytbwys yn gynaliadwy oni bai ein bod yn symud ymlaen mewn ystod ehangach o sectorau. Ni fydd hynny’n digwydd oni bai fod gennym ethos hyderus ac entrepreneuraidd wedi’i ymgorffori yn ein seice o oedran cynnar. Dim ond deuddydd yn ôl, dywedodd Syr Brian Souter, prif swyddog gweithredol cwmni cludiant Stagecoach, mai entrepreneuriaid oedd ystafell injan yr economi, a bod angen gwneud mwy i feithrin talent busnes newydd yn gynnar. Mae bellach mewn partneriaeth tair blynedd gyda’r Ymddiriedolaeth Menter Addysg, gan ddarparu hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth busnes i gannoedd o bobl ifanc 16 i 19 oed, gan eu helpu i ddeall busnes a’i rôl yn yr economi. Dangosodd yr ymchwil dros dro, a ysgogodd y bartneriaeth hon, fod gan ddim ond un rhan o dair o bobl ifanc 14 i 19 argraff bositif o fusnes yn flaenorol. Wedyn, cododd y ffigur i 98 y cant.

As we know, some schools already use the enterprise skills element of the curriculum to sell the vegetables that they grow, for example, but that is not exactly ambitious. Nick Ramsay referred to the Welsh Conservative policy of establishing social enterprise in schools, but more direction from the private and third sectors does not let Government off the hook. Helping cashflow and the bottom line is in the gift of this Welsh Labour Government if only it would take smaller businesses out of rates altogether. Also, if the Welsh Labour Government sees the digital economy as a central element of its economic renewal programme, where is the ICT enterprise zone? There are 27,000 people in Wales employed in the IT sector—a number not so very short of the 33,000 employed in finance and industry. The demand for IT expertise is growing, not least in the creative industries on which we are placing so much emphasis. It is an obvious area for Welsh SMEs to prompt growth, yet it seems that the number of pupils taking ICT GCSEs and A-levels is starting to fall. Let me therefore put in a bid for an ICT enterprise zone for South Wales West here and now. South Wales West had nothing in the first round, and I know that the SMEs in my region are looking forward to the opportunity to show how they can contribute to the growth of the Welsh economy.

Fel y gwyddom, mae rhai ysgolion eisoes yn defnyddio’r elfen sgiliau menter yn y cwricwlwm i werthu’r llysiau y maent yn eu tyfu, er enghraifft, ond nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn uchelgeisiol. Cyfeiriodd Nick Ramsay at bolisi’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig o sefydlu menter gymdeithasol mewn ysgolion, ond nid yw mwy o gyfarwyddyd gan y sector preifat a’r trydydd sector yn esgusodi’r Llywodraeth. Mae helpu llif arian a’r llinell waelod yn nwylo’r Llywodraeth Lafur hon yng Nghymru pe buasai dim ond yn cymryd busnesau llai allan o ardrethi yn gyfan gwbl. Hefyd, os yw Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru yn gweld yr economi ddigidol yn elfen ganolog o’i rhaglen adnewyddu’r economi, ble mae’r ardal fenter technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu? Mae 27,000 o bobl yng Nghymru sy’n cael eu cyflogi yn y sector technoleg gwybodaeth—nid yw’r nifer yn llawer llai na’r 33,000 a gyflogir ym maes cyllid a diwydiant. Mae’r galw am arbenigedd TG yn tyfu, yn enwedig yn y diwydiannau creadigol yr ydym yn rhoi cymaint o bwyslais arnynt. Mae’n ardal amlwg i fusnesau bach a chanolig yng Nghymru i annog twf, ac eto mae’n ymddangos bod nifer y disgyblion sy’n cymryd TGAU TGCh a Safon Uwch yn dechrau gostwng. Gadewch i mi felly wneud cais yma ac yn awr am gael ardal fenter TGCh ar gyfer Gorllewin De Cymru. Nid oedd Gorllewin De Cymru yn y rownd gyntaf, a gwn fod y busnesau bach a chanolig yn fy rhanbarth yn edrych ymlaen at y cyfle i ddangos sut y gallant gyfrannu at dwf economi Cymru.

David Rees: The Member for Monmouth, in his opening speech, highlighted some of the concerns that we all have about the economic climate today, and how unhelpful it is to any business, entrepreneur, SME or major multinational. What he did not mention, of course, was the failure of the UK Government to consider a plan B, which highlights its inability to develop the economy.

David Rees: Tynnodd yr Aelod dros Fynwy sylw yn ei araith agoriadol at rai o’r pryderon sydd gennym ni i gyd am yr hinsawdd economaidd heddiw, a pha mor ddi-fudd ydyw i unrhyw fusnes, entrepreneur, busnes bach a chanolig neu fusnes rhyngwladol mawr. Yr hyn na soniodd amdano, wrth gwrs, oedd methiant Llywodraeth y DU i ystyried cynllun B, sy’n amlygu ei anallu i ddatblygu’r economi.

It is important that we allow our businesses to drive the economy, and that we support that drive as much as possible. Many people associate my constituency with heavy industry, particularly because of the Tata works, but we should remember that there are many SMEs whose work is based on what goes on at the Tata works, and there are more people employed by SMEs in my constituency than there are employed in the Tata works. I am therefore pleased to have this opportunity to raise the issues that are important to the SME sector.

Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn caniatáu i’n busnesau i roi hwb i’r economi, a’n bod yn cefnogi’r egni hwnnw gymaint â phosibl. Mae llawer o bobl yn cysylltu fy etholaeth gyda diwydiant trwm, yn arbennig oherwydd gweithfeydd Tata, ond dylem gofio y ceir llawer o fusnesau bach a chanolig yn seiliedig ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd yng ngweithfeydd Tata, a chyflogir mwy o bobl gan fusnesau bach a chanolig yn fy etholaeth i nag sy’n cael eu cyflogi gan weithfeydd Tata. Felly, rwy’n falch o gael y cyfle hwn i godi materion sy’n bwysig i’r sector busnesau bach a chanolig.

I have two initial points, and then I will come back to entrepreneurs at the end. First, I would like to thank the Minister for her announcement last week on the extra sector panel for construction. We talk about 98 per cent of businesses in the key sectors being SMEs, but 93 per cent of the construction industry in Wales is made up of SMEs of 50 people or fewer and it is a major, growing sector. We know that the construction sector drives the economy and regeneration. The programme for government announced yesterday highlights one important aspect that can help that sector, and that is procurement. I have asked the Minister to look carefully at the procurement rules that apply to Government contracts, and perhaps all public sector contracts, so that we can support local businesses and, at the same time, make the process straightforward. The streamlining of regulation has already been mentioned. We should make it as non-bureaucratic as possible so that businesses in the construction sector, for example, do not spend their time on red tape. I also ask you to ensure that the winner of any contract has a requirement to ensure that their obligations to any social contract clause or responsibility are passed down the line to any sub-contractors, because, in the construction industry, there is a great deal of sub-contracting.

Mae gennyf ddau bwynt cychwynnol, ac yna byddaf yn dod yn ôl at entrepreneuriaid ar y diwedd. Yn gyntaf, hoffwn ddiolch i’r Gweinidog am ei chyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf ar y panel sector ychwanegol ar gyfer adeiladu. Rydym yn sôn am y ffaith bod 98 y cant o fusnesau yn y sectorau allweddol yn fusnesau bach a chanolig, ond y mae 93 y cant o’r diwydiant adeiladu yng Nghymru yn cynnwys busnesau bach a chanolig o 50 o bobl neu lai ac y mae’n sector o bwys, sydd yn tyfu. Rydym yn gwybod bod y sector adeiladu yn gyrru’r economi ac adfywio. Mae’r rhaglen lywodraethu a gyhoeddwyd ddoe yn tynnu sylw at un agwedd bwysig a all helpu’r sector hwnnw, sef caffael. Rwyf wedi gofyn i’r Gweinidog edrych yn ofalus ar y rheolau caffael sy’n berthnasol i gontractau Llywodraeth, ac efallai holl gontractau’r sector cyhoeddus, fel y gallwn gefnogi busnesau lleol ac, ar yr un pryd, gwneud y broses yn syml. Mae symleiddio rheoleiddio eisoes wedi cael ei grybwyll. Dylem ei wneud mor anfiwrocrataidd â phosibl fel nad yw busnesau yn y sector adeiladu, er enghraifft, yn treulio eu hamser ar fiwrocratiaeth. Rwyf hefyd yn gofyn i chi i sicrhau ei fod yn amod ar enillydd unrhyw gontract i sicrhau bod eu rhwymedigaethau i unrhyw gymal contract cymdeithasol neu gyfrifoldeb yn cael eu trosglwyddo i unrhyw isgontractwyr, oherwydd, yn y diwydiant adeiladu, mae llawer iawn o is-gontractio.

Secondly, we need to welcome the work done by the Welsh Government in supporting the workforce in businesses. Its workforce development plan is targeted at helping businesses develop their employees and supports both work-based training and basic skills training. Let us not forget that. In addition to training on the shop floor, we also need to look at training the managers for the future of business, because we cannot forget those who will lead business in the years ahead.

Yn ail, mae angen inni groesawu’r gwaith a wnaed gan Lywodraeth Cymru wrth gefnogi’r gweithlu mewn busnesau. Mae ei gynllun ar ddatblygu’r gweithlu yn cael ei dargedu at helpu busnesau i ddatblygu eu gweithwyr ac yn cefnogi hyfforddiant yn y gweithle a hyfforddiant sgiliau sylfaenol. Gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio hynny. Yn ogystal â hyfforddiant ar y llawr gwaith, mae angen hefyd inni edrych ar hyfforddi rheolwyr ar gyfer dyfodol busnes, oherwydd ni allwn anghofio’r rhai a fydd yn arwain busnes yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.

The Leitch review placed—

Gwnaeth adolygiad Leitch osod—

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Will you give way to the Member for Aberconwy?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: A wnewch chi ildio i’r Aelod dros Aberconwy?

David Rees: Yes.

David Rees: Gwnaf.

3.30 p.m.

Janet Finch-Saunders: This is my first intervention.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Dyma fy ymyriad cyntaf.

Between 2000 and 2004, the Welsh Development Agency funded an entrepreneurship action plan to help to encourage and support start-up and venture capital projects. When the WDA was closed in 2006, Welsh Government officials used that as an excuse to refuse to allow the EAP to continue. Since then, Wales has slipped further and further behind its UK counterparts. Why has the Welsh Government not recognised the value of the EAP, as Scotland has, and brought it back?

Rhwng 2000 a 2004, ariannodd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru gynllun gweithredu entrepreneuriaeth i helpu annog a chefnogi prosiectau cychwyn busnes a phrosiectau cyfalaf menter. Pan gaewyd yr awdurdod datblygu yn 2006, roedd swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn defnyddio hynny fel esgus i wrthod caniatáu i’r cynllun gweithredu entrepreneuriaeth barhau. Ers hynny, mae Cymru wedi llithro ymhellach ac ymhellach y tu ôl i’w chymheiriaid yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Pam nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cydnabod gwerth y cynllun gweithredu entrepreneuriaeth, fel y mae’r Alban wedi ei wneud, a dod ag ef yn ôl?

David Rees: I am sure that she will have an opportunity to ask the Minister the right question.

David Rees: Rwy’n siŵr y bydd hi’n cael cyfle i ofyn y cwestiwn cywir i’r Gweinidog.

The Leitch review placed skills right at the top of the agenda of economic regeneration, and we all benefit from increasing skills: individuals, employers and the economy as a whole. This was the approach taken by the previous Welsh Assembly Government through schemes such as ReAct and ProAct. In Neath Port Talbot, for example, ReAct and ProAct supported more than 100 businesses and over 2,000 employees; these are people who would have been out of work and families that would have suffered without that support. Across Wales, those figures are even higher: 27,000 workers and over 2,000 businesses. You can therefore see that the Welsh Government is looking to develop the skills and the businesses that supply the global economy. This Labour Government clearly recognises that economic survival is in the strength of our workforce. I am pleased to see that ReAct has been extended, through Adapt, and that ProAct is being replaced by Skills Growth Wales, which will purposefully target growth.

Gosododd adolygiad Leitch sgiliau ar frig yr agenda adfywio economaidd, ac rydym i gyd yn elwa o gael gwell sgiliau: unigolion, cyflogwyr a’r economi yn gyffredinol. Hwn oedd y dull a fabwysiadwyd gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol drwy gynlluniau megis ReAct a ProAct. Yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot, er enghraifft, mae ReAct a ProAct yn cefnogi dros 100 o fusnesau a thros 2,000 o weithwyr; mae’r rhain yn bobl a fyddai wedi bod allan o waith, ac yn deuluoedd a fyddai wedi dioddef heb y gefnogaeth honno. Ar draws Cymru, mae’r ffigurau hynny yn uwch fyth: 27,000 o weithwyr a thros 2,000 o fusnesau. Gallwch weld, felly, bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried datblygu’r sgiliau a’r busnesau sy’n cyflenwi’r economi byd-eang. Mae’r Llywodraeth Lafur hon yn cydnabod yn glir bod cryfder ein gweithlu yn sail i oroesiad economaidd. Rwy’n falch gweld bod ReAct wedi cael ei ymestyn, drwy Adapt, a bod Twf Sgiliau Cymru, a fydd yn targedu twf yn bwrpasol, yn cymryd lle ProAct.

However, the Government is not alone in wanting to deliver skills. I must applaud the Government’s commitment this year of £1.5 million to the Wales union learning fund, because unions, in representing workforces, are working in partnership with employers to further develop workforce skills so that the skills base is in an environment of growth. For example, the Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians’ Building Learning across Wales project supports employers and employees to gain NVQs and, therefore, construction skills certification scheme cards, which are vital to work on sites. If we are looking to construction to lead our economic growth we need the workforce for that. I will ask the Minister one question that arises from that. Previously, it was the Deputy Minister for Science, Innovation and Skills who was responsible for the Wolf review of vocational education; which Minister is now responsible for approving WULF applications?

Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r Llywodraeth ar ei phen ei hun wrth eisiau darparu sgiliau. Rhaid i mi ganmol ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth eleni o £1.5 miliwn at gronfa ddysgu undebau Cymru, gan fod undebau, wrth gynrychioli gweithluoedd, yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth gyda chyflogwyr i ddatblygu ymhellach sgiliau’r gweithlu fel bod y sylfaen sgiliau mewn amgylchedd o dwf. Er enghraifft, mae prosiect Building Learning Across Wales yr Undeb Adeiladu, Crefftau Perthynol a Thechnegwyr yn cefnogi cyflogwyr a gweithwyr i ennill NVQs ac, felly, cardiau’r cynllun ardystio sgiliau adeiladu, sy’n hanfodol i weithio ar safleoedd. Os ydym yn edrych i adeiladu i arwain ein twf economaidd, mae angen y gweithlu i wneud hynny. Rwyf am ofyn i’r Gweinidog un cwestiwn sy’n codi o hynny. Yn flaenorol, roedd y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wyddoniaeth, Arloesi a Sgiliau yn gyfrifol am yr adolygiad Wolf o addysg alwedigaethol; pa Weinidog sydd erbyn hyn yn gyfrifol am gymeradwyo ceisiadau WULF?

Finally, I come back to the entrepreneurships. The Member for Monmouth again mentioned the reduction in the birth rate of entrepreneurs. He did not mention that across the UK, as my previous experience shows, we have encouraged graduates to take those skills into the workforce. It is important that we continue to do that. We need to encourage them to use their spirit of entrepreneurism and to take their opportunities in the current workforce.

Yn olaf, rwyf am ddychwelyd at entrepreneuriaethau. Eto, soniodd yr Aelod dros Fynwy am y gostyngiad yn y gyfradd genedigaethau ar gyfer entrepreneuriaid. Ni soniodd ein bod, ar draws y DU, fel mae fy mhrofiad blaenorol yn ei ddangos, wedi annog graddedigion i gymryd y sgiliau hynny i mewn i’r gweithlu. Mae’n bwysig ein bod yn parhau i wneud hynny. Mae angen i ni eu hannog i ddefnyddio eu hysbryd entrepreneuriaeth ac i gymryd eu cyfleoedd yn y gweithlu presennol.

Mark Isherwood: The global financial crisis, which has been referred to, was not made in Downing Street, but Labour did give us a bigger budget deficit than Greece and the largest of any major economy. As the International Monetary Fund said, the UK banking system was more exposed to sub-prime lending than anywhere else in the world. They came like thieves in the morning, noon and night, like the pied piper—[Interruption.]

Mark Isherwood: Ni chafodd yr argyfwng ariannol byd-eang, y cyfeiriwyd ato, ei wneud yn Stryd Downing, ond fe wnaeth Llafur achosi diffyg yn y gyllideb a oedd yn fwy nag un Gwlad Groeg, a’r fwyaf o unrhyw economi fawr. Fel y dywedodd y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol, roedd system fancio’r DU yn fwy agored i fenthyca eilaidd nag unman arall yn y byd. Daethant fel lladron yn y bore, canol dydd a nos, fel y pibydd brith—[Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. I want to hear the speakers. This is the whole purpose of having a National Assembly and I will not permit barracking of that nature where it is impossible to hear what the speaker is saying.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Rwyf am glywed y siaradwyr. Dyma holl bwrpas cael Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac ni fyddaf yn caniatáu heclo o’r natur yma lle nad oes modd clywed yr hyn y mae’r siaradwr yn ei ddweud.

Mark Isherwood: Diolch. They came like thieves in the morning, noon and night, like the pied piper enticing all into the mountain of debt with the magic pipe playing, ‘End to boom and bust’. It was Gordon Brown who coined the phrase, ‘light touch regulation’ and lectured other European leaders on the same subject. Of course, the current shadow chancellor, Gordon Brown’s former economic advisor, now proposes to increase the deficit, the national debt and debt interest payments, threatening economic stability with higher interest rates and a loss of market confidence. If it had not been for the current UK Government’s ‘made in the UK’ deficit reduction plan, we, like Greece and others, would be facing far greater externally imposed cuts now.

Mark Isherwood: Diolch. Daethant fel lladron yn y bore, canol dydd a nos, fel y pibydd brith yn denu pawb i’r mynydd o ddyled gyda’r bibell hud yn chwarae, ‘End to boom and bust’. Gordon Brown a fathodd yr ymadrodd ‘light touch regulation’ ac efe a wnaeth roi darlith i arweinwyr Ewropeaidd eraill ar yr un pwnc. Wrth gwrs, mae canghellor presennol yr wrthblaid, cyn-gynghorydd economaidd Gordon Brown, nawr yn cynnig cynyddu’r diffyg, y ddyled genedlaethol a thaliadau llog ar ddyledion, gan fygwth sefydlogrwydd economaidd gyda chyfraddau llog uwch a cholli hyder y farchnad. Oni bai am gynllun Llywodraeth presennol y DU i leihau’r diffyg ariannol, byddwn ni, fel Gwlad Groeg ac eraill, yn wynebu toriadau llawer mwy nawr, wedi’u gosod yn allanol.

Vaughan Gething: Thank you for giving way, Mark Isherwood. You mentioned that Gordon Brown introduced what is now referred to as ‘light touch regulation’ of financial services, but do you not recall that all three of the major parties agreed to that light touch regime, including Vince Cable for the Lib Dems and all of the Tories’ economic spokespeople at the time?

Vaughan Gething: Diolch am ildio, Mark Isherwood. Soniasoch fod Gordon Brown wedi cyflwyno’r hyn y cyfeirir ato fel ‘light touch regulation’ o wasanaethau ariannol, ond onid ydych yn cofio bod pob un o’r tri phrif blaid wedi cytuno i’r gyfundrefn honno, gan gynnwys Vince Cable ar ran y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a phob un o lefarwyr economaidd y Torïaid ar y pryd?

Mark Isherwood: Having worked in the industry, I recall the New Labour Government rightly making the mortgage code statutory and then abandoning it as toxic debt ran rife in the economy. I can tell you what actually happened if you want to have a chat on another occasion.

Mark Isherwood: Ar ôl gweithio yn y diwydiant, rwy’n cofio i Lywodraeth Llafur Newydd, yn gywir ddigon, wneud y cod morgeisi yn statudol ac yna rhoi’r gorau iddo wrth i ddyled gwenwynig fynd yn rhemp yn yr economi. Gallaf ddweud wrthych beth a ddigwyddodd mewn gwirionedd, os ydych am gael sgwrs rywbryd arall.

In the real world, the UK’s AAA credit rating was put on negative watch when Labour were in office, but by 2011, all three credit rating agencies have revised the UK’s AAA credit rating from negative to stable. The IMF said last week that the UK has a five in six chance of not sliding back into recession, and the UK economy is forecast to grow faster than the US and Germany next year. However, in Wales, big state Welsh Government has spent 12 years telling business enterprise what to do rather than asking what needs to be done, leaving our economy out of kilter and Wales at the bottom of the pile.

Yn y byd go iawn, rhoddwyd statws credyd AAA y DU ar wyliadwriaeth negyddol pan oedd Llafur mewn grym, ond erbyn 2011, mae pob un o’r tri asiantaeth statws credyd wedi diwygio statws credyd AAA y DU o negyddol i sefydlog. Dywedodd y Gronfa Ariannol Ryngwladol yr wythnos diwethaf fod gan y DU bump siawns mewn chwech o beidio â llithro yn ôl i ddirwasgiad, a rhagwelir y bydd economi’r DU yn tyfu yn gyflymach nag economi’r Unol Daleithiau a’r Almaen y flwyddyn nesaf. Fodd bynnag, yng Nghymru, mae Llywodraeth Cymru y wladwriaeth fawr wedi treulio 12 mlynedd yn dweud wrth fusnesau beth i’w wneud, yn hytrach na gofyn beth y mae angen ei wneud, gan adael ein heconomi allan o drefn a Chymru ar waelod y pentwr.

In his speech to the Labour Party conference this week, Carwyn Jones said

Yn ei araith i gynhadledd y Blaid Lafur yr wythnos hon, dywedodd Carwyn Jones

‘we will not fail in our duty to help our people during difficult times’,

Ni fyddwn yn methu yn ein dyletswydd i helpu ein pobl yn ystod adegau anodd,

but that is precisely what Labour has done. After 12 years of devolution, Wales has the highest levels of child poverty, youth unemployment and economic inactivity and the lowest levels of average earnings and wealth creation, and that was before the change of UK Government. The changes of the past decade have done nothing to close the prosperity gap between us and our national and regional partners. The industrial South Wales Valleys, west Wales and four out of the six north Wales counties entered the new millennium with EU Objective 1 status, and they now qualify for a third round of European funding, making them comparable with the poorest regions of the European Union. Under the last UK Conservative Government, Wales was the most successful UK nation or region for attracting inward investment, and Welsh manufacturing grew by 31 per cent. However, Wales is now near bottom, and the former chair of the WDA has revealed that the Welsh Government has blown £100 million a year to keep us there.

ond dyna’n union beth y mae Llafur wedi ei wneud. Ar ôl 12 mlynedd o ddatganoli, mae gan Gymru y lefelau uchaf o dlodi plant, diweithdra ymhlith pobl ifanc ac anweithgarwch economaidd, a’r lefelau isaf o enillion cyfartalog a chreu cyfoeth, ac roedd hynny cyn newid Llywodraeth y DU. Mae newidiadau y degawd diwethaf wedi gwneud dim i gau’r bwlch ffyniant rhyngom ni a’n partneriaid cenedlaethol a rhanbarthol. Aeth cymoedd diwydiannol De Cymru, gorllewin Cymru a phedwar allan o chwe sir Gogledd Cymru i mewn i’r mileniwm newydd gyda statws Amcan 1 yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, a nawr maent yn gymwys ar gyfer trydydd rownd o arian Ewropeaidd, fel bod modd eu cymharu â rhanbarthau tlotaf yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. O dan Lywodraeth Geidwadol ddiwethaf y DU, Cymru oedd y wlad neu’r rhanbarth fwyaf llwyddiannus yn y DU o ran denu mewnfuddsoddiad, a thyfodd gweithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru 31 y cant. Fodd bynnag, mae Cymru bellach yn agos at y gwaelod, ac y mae cyn-gadeirydd Awdurdod Datblygu Cymru wedi datgelu bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwario £100 miliwn y flwyddyn i’n cadw ni yno.

In his speech to the Labour Party conference, Carwyn Jones said that

Yn ei araith i gynhadledd y Blaid Lafur, dywedodd Carwyn Jones

‘unlike the Tories, we won’t accept another lost generation of young people.’

Yn wahanol i’r Torïaid, ni fyddwn yn derbyn cenhedlaeth goll arall o bobl ifanc.

In reality, the UK Government is funding 100,000 work experience places and 50,000 additional apprenticeship places. Wales, meanwhile, has slipped to last place in the UK competitiveness index. The Federation of Small Businesses Wales said that Welsh Labour’s 2011 manifesto largely ignored small business. The Institute of Directors said that members perceive a suspicion of the private sector and the role of profits in their dealings with the Welsh Government, and that in Wales, regulation is in excess of that in the UK. The Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors Wales said that the system of bidding for work is overly bureaucratic and cumbersome for small business, and the Confederation of British Industry Wales said that Wales has a growing reputation as one of the most difficult places in the UK for public procurement. Only last weekend, a small Wrexham business told me it had completed a 300-page Welsh Government application for £34,500, equating to 30 per cent funding. It was promised pre-approval in three weeks and full approval in nine weeks, but it took 26 weeks to get approval and 62 weeks to get the money. This delay meant that it had to start work on the unit to which the funding related, which made it ineligible for all but £3,000. The owner of this small business had to sell his pension to keep the business afloat.

Mewn gwirionedd, mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ariannu 100,000 o leoliadau profiad gwaith a 50,000 o leoliadau prentisiaeth ychwanegol. Mae Cymru, yn y cyfamser, wedi llithro i’r safle olaf ym mynegai cystadleurwydd y DU. Dywedodd Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach Cymru bod maniffesto Llafur Cymru yn 2011 yn anwybyddu busnesau bach i raddau helaeth. Dywedodd Sefydliad y Cyfarwyddwyr bod aelodau yn gweld amheuaeth am y sector preifat a rôl elw yn eu hymwneud â Llywodraeth Cymru, a bod rheoleiddio yng Nghymru yn fwy helaeth nag ydyw yn y DU yn ei chyfanrwydd. Dywedodd Sefydliad Brenhinol y Syrfewyr Siartredig Cymru bod y system o gynnig am waith yn rhy fiwrocrataidd a beichus ar gyfer busnesau bach, a dywedodd Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yng Nghymru fod gan Gymru enw gwael cynyddol fel un o’r lleoedd mwyaf anodd yn y DU ar gyfer caffael cyhoeddus. Y penwythnos diwethaf, dywedodd busnes bach yn Wrecsam wrthyf ei fod wedi cwblhau cais 300 tudalen i Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer £34,500, sy’n cyfateb i gyllid o 30 y cant. Addawyd i’r cwmni y byddai’n cael cymeradwyaeth gychwynnol mewn tair wythnos a chymeradwyaeth lawn mewn naw wythnos, ond cymerodd 26 wythnos i gael cymeradwyaeth gychwynnol a 62 wythnos i gael yr arian. Roedd yr oedi yn golygu bod yn rhaid iddo ddechrau gweithio ar yr uned yr oedd y cyllid yn ymwneud â hi, a oedd yn golygu ei fod yn anghymwys ar gyfer yr holl gyllid, heblaw £3,000. Roedd yn rhaid i berchennog y busnes bach hwn werthu ei bensiwn i gadw’r busnes i fynd.

So, we look to the new Minister to develop the entrepreneurial activity so desperately needed by leaving behind centralism and big Government and putting reconstruction before the managed decline of the last 12 years.

Felly, rydym yn edrych at y Gweinidog newydd i ddatblygu’r gweithgaredd entrepreneuraidd y mae ei angen yn fawr, drwy gefnu ar ganoliaeth a Llywodraeth fawr a chanolbwyntio ar ailadeiladu, ar ôl dirywiad y 12 mlynedd diwethaf.

Alun Ffred Jones: Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyfrannu i’r ddadl hon. Fel y dywedwyd, mae’n anodd peidio â chytuno â’r cynnig, gan ei fod mor gyffredinol. Nid oes manylion ynddo, nac unrhyw beth y gallai rhywun anghytuno ag ef, ond mae’n brin iawn ar unrhyw sylwedd. Wedi dweud hynny, mae’n amlwg yn cyfeirio at faes pwysig iawn.

Alun Ffred Jones: I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate. As has already been said, it is difficult to disagree with the motion as it is so general. There are no details contained in it and nothing that one could disagree with, but it is lacking in substance. Having said that, clearly it does refer to a very important area.

Mae’r pwynt cyntaf yn cyfeirio at botensial busnesau bychain a chanolig eu maint i dyfu economi Cymru; mae hynny’n berffaith wir. Un o’r pethau a’m trawodd yn ystod yr etholiad diwethaf oedd cymaint o amrywiaeth o gwmnïau oedd yn fy etholaeth—ac mae’n siŵr o fod yn wir am etholaethau eraill hefyd—gan gynnwys: cwmnïau technoleg uwch; cwmnïau technoleg gwybodaeth, fel Gaia Technologies, sy’n ennill contractau drwy Brydain; cwmnïau twristiaeth llwyddiannus, fel canolfan Gelli Gyffwrdd, sydd, er gwaethaf y ddamwain yno yn gynharach eleni, wedi profi’i hun flwyddyn ar ôl blwyddyn fel canolfan eithriadol o lwyddiannus a chynaliadwy.

The first point refers to the potential of small and medium-sized enterprises to grow the Welsh economy; that is perfectly true. One of the things that struck me during the last election campaign was the variety of companies in my constituency—and this is surely true of other constituencies as well—including: high-tech companies; information technology companies, such as Gaia Technologies that is awarded contracts by companies across Britain; successful tourism companies, such as the Gelli Gyffwrdd centre that, despite the accident that happened earlier this year, has proved itself year on year to be an exceptionally successful and sustainable centre.

Rhaid hefyd gyfeirio at gwmnïau traddodiadol—cwmnïau bysys llwyddiannus, er enghraifft—sydd wedi ehangu yn ystod y cyfnod diwethaf. Mae cwmnïau gwaith metel y soniwyd amdanynt yn barod y prynhawn yma, yn rhyfedd iawn, yn gwneud tipyn o waith ac wedi cael hwb sylweddol gan y sector cyhoeddus a’r trydydd sector yn ein hardal ni. Felly, er ein bod yn cydnabod bod ein heconomi yn fregus iawn, yn arbennig yn yr ardaloedd gwledig ac yn yr hen ardaloedd diwydiannol, mae entrepreneuriaid wrthi o ddydd i ddydd yn gwneud busnes yn llwyddiannus. Mae’r alwad hon ynglŷn â magu entrepreneuriaeth ymysg ein pobl ifanc yn fy atgoffa o gynllun llwyddiannus sydd wedi cael ei redeg gan Gyngor Gwynedd ers nifer o flynyddoedd, sef ‘Llwyddo’n Lleol’. Mae’r cynllun hwn yn ceisio cael pobl ifanc i feddwl am sefydlu busnesau cyn iddynt adael yr ysgol ac mae’n rhoi cefnogaeth iddynt i wneud hynny ar ôl gadael. Erbyn hyn, yr wyf yn falch o ddweud bod y cynllun wedi ehangu i ardaloedd eraill gyda chymorth arian Ewropeaidd.

I must also refer to traditional companies—successful bus companies, for example—that have expanded in the last few years. Metalwork companies, which have already been referred to this afternoon, rather peculiarly, are undertaking a lot of work and have had a significant boost from the public sector and the third sector in our area. Therefore, although we recognise that our economy is very fragile, especially in rural and post-industrial areas, entrepreneurs are working every day to create successful businesses. This call for the need to develop entrepreneurial activity among our young people reminds me of a successful scheme that has been run by Gwynedd Council for a number of years, which is ‘Llwyddo’n Lleol—Succeeding Locally’. This scheme aims to get young people to think about establishing businesses before they leave school and also supports them once they have left school. I am pleased to say that, by now, that scheme has now been expanded to other areas by utilising European funding.

Yn ychwanegol at y llwyddiannau lleol, yr wyf hefyd am gyfeirio at y trydydd sector. Yn fy ardal i, mae dwy enghraifft lwyddiannus. Un yw Cwmni Rheilffordd Ffestiniog, sy’n ddibynnol i raddau helaeth ar wirfoddolwyr. Mae agor y lein o Gaernarfon i Borthmadog wedi bod yn eithriadol o lwyddiannus ac yn fuddsoddiad gwerthfawr iawn, er gwaethaf y gwrthwynebiad iddo. Mae wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth go iawn i drefi Caernarfon a Phorthmadog. Yr wyf hefyd am gyfeirio at Antur Waunfawr, sy’n un o nifer o fentrau cymdeithasol lleol sydd wedi tyfu a sefydlu eu hunain. Mae’r fenter wedi rhoi cyflogaeth i bobl ag anableddau dysgu, ac mae’n gyflogwr sylweddol ynddi’i hun sydd erbyn hyn wedi symud ymaith o ddibynnu ar grantiau. Felly, nid wyf yn dweud bod popeth yn llwyddiannus a bod yr economi yn ffynnu yn yr ardal hon, ond yr wyf yn dweud y dylem gydnabod y llwyddiannau hynny sydd yn ein mysg yn barod.

In addition to those local successes, I also want to refer to the third sector. In my area, there are two very successful examples. The first is the Ffestiniog Railway Company that is dependent on volunteers to a great extent. Opening the line from Caernarfon to Porthmadog has been exceptionally successful and has been a very valuable investment, despite the objections to it. It has made a great difference to the towns of Caernarfon and Porthmadog. I also want to refer to Antur Waunfawr, which is one of a number of local social enterprises that have grown and established themselves. The enterprise offers employment to people with learning disabilities; it is a significant employer in itself that has now moved away from being dependent on grants. Therefore, I am not saying that the picture is entirely rosy and that the economy is prospering in my area, but I am saying that we should recognise those successes that are already in place.

O ran safbwynt y Blaid ar hyrwyddo busnesau bach, mae ein cynllun bonws busnesau bychain yn golygu y byddai cronfa ar gyfer benthyciadau. Mae hyn yn eithriadol o bwysig gan nad wyf yn cofio cyfnod yr oedd cynifer o fusnesau a oedd wedi sefydlu yn cwyno na allant gael benthyciadau er mwyn ehangu oherwydd polisi newydd y banciau, a ddaeth ar gais Banc Lloegr. Felly, mae angen y gefnogaeth honno ar fusnesau bach. Hoffwn gael datganiad gan y Gweinidog ar y cynllun rhyddhad trethi busnes, sydd wedi bod yn achubiaeth i fusnesau bach ar y stryd fawr mewn llawer o bentrefi a threfi bach. Nid yw’n golygu y bydd y busnesau hynny’n cyflogi degau ac ugeiniau o bobl yn y dyfodol, ond mae’n hanfodol o safbwynt cynnal y stryd fawr a gwasanaethau lleol. Byddai clywed cynlluniau’r Gweinidog ar gyfer hynny heddiw yn werthfawr iawn.

From Plaid’s point of view in terms of promoting small businesses, our small business bonus plan would mean that there would be a fund available to provide loans. This is incredibly important because I cannot recall a period when so many established companies were complaining that they could not access loans in order to expand because of the new policy of the banks, implemented at the request of the Bank of England. Therefore, that support is required by small businesses. I would like the Minister to make a statement on the business rate relief scheme that has saved some small businesses on the high street in a number of small towns and villages. It does not mean that those businesses will employ dozens of people in the future, but they are crucial in terms of maintaining our high streets and local services. It would be beneficial if we could hear from the Minister what her plans are in that regard.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Conclude now, please.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Dewch â’ch cyfraniad i ben nawr, os gwelwch yn dda.

Alun Ffred Jones: Yr wyf am orffen, ar gais y Dirprwy Lywydd, drwy ddweud pa mor bwysig yw cael polisi pwrcasu lleol cadarn er mwyn i’n cwmnïau llai allu manteisio’n llawn ar y buddsoddiad cyhoeddus sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru.

Alun Ffred Jones: I will conclude, at the Deputy Presiding Officer’s request, by saying how important it is to have a definite local procurement policy so that our smaller companies can take full advantage of public investment in Wales.

Russell George: Some Members may be aware that I have a business background myself, as I own a modest retail business in Newtown—I will not say the name and give an advertisement. I believe that I had an entrepreneurial spirit from a young age, and I now have a passion for encouraging young people’s entrepreneurship, encouraging them to start their own business and to see that as a positive life option. My first point is about creating the right environment. This is a significant aspect on which the Government needs to work harder. There have been successful projects in the past, such as the Dynamo project, which was a mentoring scheme for young people. It was a very good project, and one that I participated in myself. Business people went into schools and told young people about their experiences in setting up their own businesses. They showed the negative and positive aspects of that. I enjoyed doing that scheme. I hope that the Minister will continue with the scheme, and comment on it in her contribution. When I was in school, it was a case of being cast aside if you did not want to be a doctor or a teacher. Starting your own business was not regarded as an option. This is a good positive scheme, which I hope will continue.

Russell George: Efallai y bydd rhai Aelodau yn ymwybodol bod gennyf gefndir busnes fy hun, gan fy mod yn berchen ar fusnes manwerthu bach yn y Drenewydd—ni fyddaf yn dweud yr enw a’i hysbysebu. Credaf fy mod wedi meddu ar ysbryd entrepreneuraidd ers oedran ifanc, ac nawr rwy’n angerddol ynglŷn ag annog entrepreneuriaeth ymysg pobl ifanc, gan eu hannog i ddechrau eu busnesau eu hunain ac i weld hynny fel dewis bywyd cadarnhaol. Mae fy mhwynt cyntaf yn ymwneud â chreu’r amgylchedd cywir. Mae hon yn agwedd bwysig y mae angen i’r Llywodraeth weithio’n galetach arni. Bu prosiectau llwyddiannus yn y gorffennol, megis y prosiect Dynamo, sef cynllun mentora ar gyfer pobl ifanc. Roedd yn brosiect da iawn, ac un y cymerais ran ynddo. Aeth pobl fusnes i mewn i ysgolion a dweud wrth bobl ifanc am eu profiadau wrth sefydlu eu busnesau eu hunain. Dangoswyd agweddau negyddol a chadarnhaol hynny. Mwynheais wneud y cynllun hwnnw. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn parhau â’r cynllun, a rhoi sylw iddo yn ei chyfraniad. Pan oeddwn i yn yr ysgol, byddech yn cael eich bwrw o’r neilltu os nad oeddech am fod yn feddyg neu’n athro. Nid oedd dechrau eich busnes eich hun yn cael ei ystyried fel opsiwn. Mae hwn yn gynllun cadarnhaol da, a gobeithiaf y bydd yn parhau.

3.45 p.m.

Secondly, I turn to the potential for small businesses. As a small business owner myself, I believe that the Welsh Government must recognise that small and medium-sized businesses are vital in growing the economy. The Federation of Small Businesses Wales has come up with an extraordinary figure: if every small or medium-sized enterprise took on one extra employee, we could wipe out unemployment. Something that we do not do well in Wales is move businesses from stage to stage, with the goal of trying to create a large company such as Admiral Insurance, for example.

Yn ail, yr wyf yn troi at y potensial ar gyfer busnesau bach. Fel perchennog busnes bach fy hun, credaf fod yn rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru gydnabod bod busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yn hollbwysig i dyfu’r economi. Mae Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach Cymru wedi dod o hyd i ffigur rhyfeddol: os byddai pob menter bach neu ganolig eu maint yn cyflogi un gweithiwr ychwanegol, gallem ddileu diweithdra. Rhywbeth nad ydym yn gwneud yn dda yng Nghymru yw symud busnesau o gam i gam, gyda’r nod o geisio creu cwmni mawr fel Admiral Insurance, er enghraifft.

Another aspect that I would mention is business rates. It will be of no surprise to you that I am a strong supporter of the Welsh Conservatives’ manifesto commitment to abolish business rates for small businesses, to allow them to expand and create new jobs. I also appreciate the hardship relief scheme, which is helpful to small businesses in my constituency. My local authority administers the scheme with, I think, a 70/30 split—70 per cent funding from the Welsh Government and 30 per cent from the local authority. It is a good scheme, but businesses tell me that they are being told that the money is running out. That is probably my fault—not because I am applying on behalf of my own business, but because I am handing out application forms left, right and centre to suitable businesses. The Minister’s comments on that, and any additional funding, would be welcome.

Agwedd arall y byddwn yn sôn amdani yw ardrethi busnes. Bydd o ddim syndod i chi fy mod yn gefnogwr cryf o ymrwymiad maniffesto Ceidwadwyr Cymru i ddiddymu ardrethi busnes ar gyfer busnesau bach, i ganiatáu iddynt ehangu a chreu swyddi newydd. Rwyf hefyd yn gwerthfawrogi’r cynllun rhyddhad caledi, sydd o gymorth i fusnesau bach yn fy etholaeth. Mae fy awdurdod lleol yn gweinyddu’r cynllun gyda, yr wyf yn meddwl, rhaniad 70/30—70 y cant gan Lywodraeth Cymru a 30 y cant gan yr awdurdod lleol. Mae’n gynllun da, ond mae busnesau yn dweud wrthyf eu bod yn cael gwybod bod yr arian yn mynd yn brin. Fy mai i yw hynny yn ôl pob tebyg—nid oherwydd fy mod yn gwneud cais ar ran fy musnes fy hun, ond gan fy mod yn dosbarthu ffurflenni cais o bob cyfeiriad i fusnesau addas. Byddai sylwadau’r Gweinidog ar hynny, ac unrhyw gyllid ychwanegol, yn cael eu croesawu.

My last point is on encouraging models for success. I mentioned in questions to the Minister the pop-up shop scheme—an excellent scheme that I championed in my own constituency. It is a win-win situation, in which landlords are encouraged to lease their premises for a short period of maybe two, three or four weeks. It is advantageous for them, because they get an income and do not pay any business rates during that time, and it is a win-win situation for tenants, who have their risk reduced. Often, the types of businesses that are suitable are those where people want to experiment and dabble in starting their own business—perhaps by starting a Christmas, Easter or Mother’s Day shop. It takes out the risk for them as well. What is good is that it allows people on the outskirts of town, on industrial estates for example, to open a showcase business in the centre of town for a limited period so that people can understand what they sell. It is useful as well for online businesses to dabble in a physical shop. I am pleased that the Minister earlier responded well to the idea and is looking at taking it seriously. Any comments, Minister, on that scheme would be welcome. We must do everything that we can to support our town centres.

Mae fy mhwynt olaf ar annog modelau ar gyfer llwyddiant. Soniais yn y cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog am y cynllun siop ‘pop-up’— cynllun ardderchog a hyrwyddais yn fy etholaeth i. Mae’n sefyllfa lle mae pawb ar eu hennill, lle mae landlordiaid yn cael eu hannog i brydlesu eu heiddo am gyfnod byr o efallai dwy, tair neu bedair wythnos. Mae’n fanteisiol iddynt hwy, am eu bod yn cael incwm ac nid ydynt yn talu unrhyw ardrethi busnes yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, ac mae’n sefyllfa lle mae pawb ar eu hennill o ran tenantiaid, sy’n gweld eu risg yn lleihau. Yn aml, y mathau o fusnesau sy’n addas yw’r rhai lle mae pobl eisiau arbrofi ac ymhél mewn dechrau eu busnes eu hunain—efallai drwy ddechrau siop Nadolig, y Pasg neu Sul y Fam. Mae’n cael gwared ar y risg iddynt hwy hefyd. Beth sy’n dda yw ei fod yn caniatáu i bobl ar gyrion y dref, ar stadau diwydiannol er enghraifft, i agor busnes arddangos yng nghanol y dref am gyfnod cyfyngedig fel y gall pobl ddeall yr hyn y maent yn ei werthu. Mae’n ddefnyddiol yn ogystal ar gyfer busnesau ar-lein i ymhél â siop go iawn. Yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog wedi ymateb yn dda yn gynharach i’r syniad ac yn edrych ar ei gymryd o ddifri. Byddai unrhyw sylwadau, Weinidog, ar y cynllun hwnnw yn cael eu croesawu. Rhaid i ni wneud popeth y gallwn i gefnogi canol ein trefi.

Julie Morgan: I want to speak briefly about some of the businesses in my Cardiff North constituency, their potential for growth and, I believe, their unique ability to compete with businesses in areas of England, such as, Bristol. I refer to GE Healthcare on the Forest Farm Industrial Estate in Cardiff North, where stem cell replacement heart valves are being manufactured. A leading US academic has been recruited by GE to work there. This company is doing the research and manufacturing the products. This is an example of a company that is providing innovative products with high-value jobs in the constituency. There is a huge potential in developing that kind of work in Cardiff, particularly in Cardiff North, where we have the expertise of the University Hospital of Wales and the Medicentre on the same site, as well as Velindre Hospital in Whitchurch. Our task is to try to provide businesses with help for spin-offs from the high-class research that is being done.

Julie Morgan: Yr wyf am siarad yn fyr am rai o’r busnesau yn fy etholaeth i yng Ngogledd Caerdydd, eu potensial ar gyfer twf ac, yn fy marn i, eu gallu unigryw i gystadlu â busnesau mewn ardaloedd yn Lloegr, megis, Bryste. Cyfeiriaf at GE Healthcare ar Stad Ddiwydiannol Fferm y Fforest yng Ngogledd Caerdydd, lle mae bôn-gelloedd ar gyfer falfiau gosod i’r galon yn cael eu cynhyrchu. Mae academydd blaenllaw o’r Unol Daleithiau wedi cael ei recriwtio gan GE i weithio yno. Mae’r cwmni hwn yn gwneud y gwaith ymchwil ac yn gweithgynhyrchu’r cynnyrch. Mae hyn yn enghraifft o gwmni sy’n darparu cynhyrchion arloesol gyda swyddi o werth uchel yn yr etholaeth. Mae potensial enfawr o ran datblygu y math hwnnw o waith yng Nghaerdydd, yn enwedig yng Ngogledd Caerdydd, lle mae gennym arbenigedd Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru a’r Ganolfan Feddygol ar yr un safle, yn ogystal ag Ysbyty Felindre yn yr Eglwys Newydd. Ein tasg yw ceisio darparu cymorth i fusnesau ar gyfer sgil-gynhyrchion o’r ymchwil safon uchel sy’n cael ei wneud.

If you listen to Radio 4 in the morning, you will almost invariably hear about some groundbreaking research that is being done at Cardiff University and other Welsh universities. Research has been carried out on Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes, lupus and shingles: those are just recent examples of groundbreaking research that has been conducted by Cardiff University, in the medical school and in the laboratories. Our task is to make sure that there are spin-offs as a result of that world-class research that is being carried out in Cardiff and the rest of Wales for the small businesses that make the medicines and products, and the wealth, in Wales.

Os ydych yn gwrando ar Radio 4 yn y bore, byddwch bron yn ddieithriad yn clywed am rywfaint o ymchwil arloesol sy’n cael ei wneud ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd a phrifysgolion eraill yng Nghymru. Mae ymchwil wedi cael ei wneud ar glefyd Alzheimer, diabetes, lwpws a’r eryr: dim ond enghreifftiau diweddar yw’r rheiny o ymchwil arloesol sydd wedi cael ei gynnal gan Brifysgol Caerdydd, yn yr ysgol feddygol ac yn y labordai. Ein tasg yw gwneud yn siŵr bod yna sgil-gynhyrchion o ganlyniad i’r ymchwil o’r radd flaenaf hwnnw sy’n cael ei wneud yng Nghaerdydd a gweddill Cymru ar gyfer y busnesau bach sy’n gwneud y meddyginiaethau a’r cynhyrchion, a’r cyfoeth, yng Nghymru.

There are many new ideas around. I know that much depends on the UK Government, which has not helped the cause by cutting the research science capital budget by a staggering 58 per cent, as well as implementing the self-inflicted wound of the visa policy. When you are developing top-class research, you have to be open to people from all over the world to come to take part in that research, so that you can then have the businesses and products that will bring wealth to the country. I welcome the Welsh Government’s sectoral approach, and particularly the fact that Sir Christopher Evans is chairing the life science panel, because he has established 45 successful, high-quality science companies. That is an outstanding appointment to the panel. Therefore, I urge the Minister to continue to develop links between high-quality research and business. I can see, by looking at the businesses in my constituency and the research that is being done, that there is huge potential for Wales to reap the benefits of the outstanding work that is going on in this country.

Mae yna lawer o syniadau newydd o gwmpas. Gwn fod llawer yn dibynnu ar Lywodraeth y DU, sydd heb helpu’r achos drwy dorri’r gyllideb gyfalaf ar gyfer ymchwil gwyddoniaeth o ffigur syfrdanol o 58 y cant, yn ogystal â gweithredu’r polisi fisa—y clwyf hunanwneuthuredig hwnnw. Pan fyddwch yn datblygu gwaith ymchwil o’r radd flaenaf, rhaid i chi fod yn agored i bobl o bob cwr o’r byd i ddod i gymryd rhan yn y gwaith ymchwil hwnnw, fel y gallwch wedyn gael y busnesau a’r cynhyrchion a fydd yn dod â chyfoeth i’r wlad. Yr wyf yn croesawu ymagwedd sectoraidd Llywodraeth Cymru, ac yn enwedig y ffaith bod Syr Christopher Evans yn cadeirio’r panel gwyddor bywyd, oherwydd ei fod wedi sefydlu 45 o gwmnïau gwyddorau llwyddiannus, o ansawdd uchel. Mae hynny yn benodiad rhagorol i’r panel. Felly, yr wyf yn annog y Gweinidog i barhau i ddatblygu cysylltiadau rhwng ymchwil o ansawdd uchel a busnes. Gallaf weld, drwy edrych ar y busnesau yn fy etholaeth a’r ymchwil sy’n cael ei wneud, bod potensial enfawr i Gymru i elwa ar fanteision y gwaith rhagorol sy’n cael ei wneud yn y wlad hon.

The Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science (Edwina Hart): I welcome the debate, because the small and medium-sized businesses of Wales account for nearly 60 per cent of employment and 40 per cent of businesses’ turnover in Wales. The Government will support the motion tabled by the Welsh Conservatives and amendment 1, tabled by the Liberal Democrats. The growth of small business is critical to the growth of the Welsh economy. Growth in sustainable jobs is at the heart of the programme of government, which sets out our commitment to reviewing the support that is needed by start-up and other small firms. It is important that I review what is required by businesses in these difficult economic times, and we need to use the resources that we have to our best advantage. I have met business leaders, entrepreneurs and industry professionals throughout Wales to discuss the barriers to business and how we can improve the economy. I have also met my sector panels, the science advisory panel for Wales and the National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts, and have received some practical advice, some of which I will consider now and some of which I will reflect on in the future.

Y Gweinidog Busnes, Menter, Technoleg a Gwyddoniaeth (Edwina Hart): Croesawaf y ddadl, oherwydd bod y busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint yng Nghymru yn cyfrif am bron i 60 y cant o’r gyflogaeth a 40 y cant o drosiant busnesau yng Nghymru. Bydd y Llywodraeth yn cefnogi’r cynnig a gyflwynwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig a gwelliant 1, a gyflwynwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Mae twf busnesau bach yn hanfodol i dwf economi Cymru. Mae twf mewn swyddi cynaliadwy wrth wraidd y rhaglen lywodraethu, sy’n nodi ein hymrwymiad i adolygu’r gefnogaeth y mae ei angen ar fusnesau sy’n cychwyn a chwmnïau bach eraill. Mae’n bwysig fy mod yn adolygu’r hyn y mae ar fusnesau ei angen yn y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn, ac mae angen inni ddefnyddio’r adnoddau sydd gennym at ein mantais gorau. Yr wyf wedi cyfarfod ag arweinwyr busnes, entrepreneuriaid a gweithwyr proffesiynol y diwydiant ledled Cymru i drafod y rhwystrau i fusnesau a sut y gallwn wella’r economi. Yr wyf hefyd wedi cwrdd â’m paneli sector, y panel cynghori gwyddonol ar gyfer Cymru a’r Gwaddol Cenedlaethol ar gyfer Gwyddoniaeth, Technoleg a’r Celfyddydau, ac wedi derbyn rhywfaint o gyngor ymarferol, peth ohono y byddaf yn ystyried yn awr a pheth y byddaf yn myfyrio arno yn y dyfodol.

We all recognise that the policy direction of the economic renewal programme is correct, and my goal is to build on the start that has been made and to integrate our economic, education, skills and planning policies. There has been much discussion this afternoon, rightly, about the education and training agenda. When I go out to talk to representatives of companies, they are pleased by the emphasis that we place on training and skills and the fact that we are very good at dealing with companies and what they want. The issues regarding bespoke models of training are key in particular areas.

Yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod bod cyfeiriad polisi rhaglen adnewyddu’r economi yn gywir, a’m nod yw adeiladu ar y cychwyn sydd wedi’i wneud ac i integreiddio ein polisïau economaidd, addysg, sgiliau a chynllunio. Bu llawer o drafodaeth y prynhawn yma, yn gywir, am yr agenda addysg a hyfforddiant. Pan fyddaf yn mynd allan i siarad â chynrychiolwyr o gwmnïau, maent yn falch o’r pwyslais a roddwn ar hyfforddiant a sgiliau a’r ffaith ein bod yn dda iawn am ymdrin â chwmnïau a’r hyn y maent ei eisiau. Mae’r materion yn ymwneud â modelau pwrpasol o hyfforddiant yn allweddol mewn meysydd penodol.

We have to recognise that the economy is fragile and that business conditions are tough. I need to make sure that the support is right for businesses, today as well as tomorrow. That is why I am reviewing what is needed, and I have already announced the preferred location of five initial enterprise zones. Thank you, Suzy Davies, for your bid for an enterprise zone, but the information and communications technology sector panel was not enamoured of the idea of having a geographical enterprise zone; it thought that we might look at having a virtual enterprise zone rather than a geographical one. As for the comments on Jaguar Land Rover, those are simply not true. I have also established three new priority sectors, which have been broadly welcomed, and have established a microbusiness task-and-finish group, which I think we will all agree will take the development of policy forward on that agenda.

Mae’n rhaid i ni gydnabod bod yr economi yn fregus a bod amodau busnes yn galed. Mae angen i mi wneud yn siŵr bod y gefnogaeth yn iawn i fusnesau, heddiw yn ogystal ag yfory. Dyna pam yr wyf yn adolygu’r hyn sydd ei angen, ac yr wyf eisoes wedi cyhoeddi pump ardal fenter gychwynnol y’u ffefrir fel lleoliad. Diolch yn fawr, Suzy Davies, am eich cais am ardal fenter, ond nid oedd y panel sector technoleg gwybodaeth a chyfathrebu yn rhy hoff o’r syniad o gael ardal fenter ddaearyddol; mae’n meddwl y gallem edrych ar gael ardal fenter rithwir yn hytrach nag un daearyddol. O ran y sylwadau ar Jaguar Land Rover, nid ydynt yn wir. Rwyf hefyd wedi sefydlu tri sector blaenoriaeth newydd, sydd wedi cael croeso yn fras, ac wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar ficrofusnesau, y credaf y byddwn i gyd yn cytuno a fydd yn cymryd y gwaith o ddatblygu polisi yn ei flaen ar yr agenda hwnnw.

I am currently considering as part of my forward policy review the problems that businesses have in accessing finance. I acknowledge that there are difficulties in accessing finance, particularly for small, innovative companies that have no history. They are finding that incredibly difficult, and that is one area that we will concentrate on over the next few weeks. I will also set out shortly my policy review on business rates, because there are issues in that respect that we have to explore honestly and with transparency. Any business-related scheme that the Treasury does not fund in England has to be paid for by the Welsh Government. The estimated cost of scrapping business rates for all small businesses in Wales with a rateable value of £12,000 or less would be in excess of £100 million. Some positive steps have been taken relating to small businesses, which I think have been acknowledged in the Chamber. However, it is very important that we look at the issue of business rates as a whole. Anyone who has served on a local authority knows the perils of my playing around with business rates and how that could have an impact elsewhere. It might do some good for one local authority area and adversely affect another area.

Ar hyn o bryd rwy’n ystyried fel rhan o’m blaen-adolygiad polisi y problemau y mae busnesau yn eu cael wrth gael mynediad at gyllid. Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod anawsterau o ran cael gafael ar gyllid, yn enwedig ar gyfer cwmnïau bach, arloesol sydd heb unrhyw hanes. Maent yn cael hynny’n anhygoel o anodd, a dyna un maes y byddwn yn canolbwyntio arno dros yr ychydig wythnosau nesaf. Byddaf hefyd yn gosod allan yn fuan fy adolygiad polisi ar ardrethi busnes, oherwydd mae problemau yn hynny o beth y mae’n rhaid inni eu harchwilio yn onest ac yn dryloyw. Rhaid i unrhyw gynllun sy’n gysylltiedig â busnes nad yw’r Trysorlys yn ei ariannu yn Lloegr gael ei dalu amdano gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Byddai’r gost a amcangyfrifir i ddileu ardrethi busnes i bob busnes bach yng Nghymru sydd â gwerth ardrethol o £12,000 neu lai yn fwy na £100 miliwn. Mae rhai camau cadarnhaol wedi’u cymryd mewn perthynas â busnesau bach sydd, rwy’n meddwl, wedi cael eu cydnabod yn y Siambr. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig iawn ein bod yn edrych ar fater ardrethi busnes yn ei gyfanrwydd. Mae unrhyw un sydd wedi gwasanaethu ar awdurdod lleol yn gwybod y peryglon ohonof fi yn chwarae o gwmpas gyda threthi busnes a sut y gallai hynny gael effaith mewn mannau eraill. Efallai byddai’n gwneud rhywfaint o dda ar gyfer un ardal awdurdod lleol ac yn cael effaith andwyol ar ardal arall.

I am also looking at ways to encourage more entrepreneurship, because I think that this is essential. I welcome very much the contributions that have been made on this. We will be reviewing what entrepreneurial support is needed by start-ups and small firms with real potential to grow and looking at how we can embed an entrepreneurial culture in Wales. I have now recruited a network of business entrepreneurship champions, who will proactively promote entrepreneurship and provide guidance on entrepreneurship policy. We will be undertaking a start-up campaign, building up to the global entrepreneurship week, which will be held here in November, including promoting Wales as a great place to start up business. Of course, the important area is the graduate entrepreneurship programme that is being developed to provide intensive supervision, training and coaching to talented graduates. That is an area of enormous potential. So, we are getting to grips with entrepreneurship.

Yr wyf hefyd yn edrych ar ffyrdd o annog mwy o entrepreneuriaeth, gan fy mod yn meddwl bod hyn yn hanfodol. Croesawaf yn fawr iawn y cyfraniadau sydd wedi’u gwneud ar hyn. Byddwn yn adolygu pa gefnogaeth entrepreneuraidd y mae ei angen ar gwmnïau newydd a chwmnïau bach sydd â photensial gwirioneddol i dyfu ac edrych ar sut y gallwn ymgorffori diwylliant entrepreneuraidd yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn awr wedi recriwtio rhwydwaith o hyrwyddwyr busnes entrepreneuriaeth, a fydd yn rhagweithiol yn hybu entrepreneuriaeth a rhoi arweiniad ar bolisi entrepreneuriaeth. Byddwn yn cynnal ymgyrch dechrau busnes, gan adeiladu at yr wythnos entrepreneuriaeth fyd-eang, a fydd yn cael ei gynnal yma ym mis Tachwedd, gan gynnwys hyrwyddo Cymru fel lle gwych i gychwyn busnes. Wrth gwrs, yr ardal bwysig yw’r rhaglen entrepreneuriaeth i raddedigion sy’n cael ei ddatblygu i ddarparu goruchwyliaeth ddwys, hyfforddiant ac arweiniad i raddedigion talentog. Mae hynny yn ardal o botensial enfawr. Felly, rydym yn mynd i’r afael â entrepreneuriaeth.

I very much welcomed Russell George’s point about the network of 350 Dynamo role model entrepreneurs provided, because they had been positively motivational and inspirational in their presentations to young people across Wales. We are currently targeting about 47,000 young people annually. That is a good start. Also on entrepreneurship, Alun Ffred referred to the role of the third sector. I have had first-hand experience of a wonderful ride on the railway he mentioned. It was absolutely delightful, but it is also making a difference to the local economy in terms of tourism and to employment prospects in that area. That is where you see entrepreneurship taking off.

Croesewais yn fawr bwynt Russell George am y rhwydwaith a ddarperir o 350 o entrepreneuriaid Dynamo sy’n fodelau rôl, gan eu bod wedi bod yn gadarnhaol o ysgogol ac ysbrydoledig yn eu cyflwyniadau i bobl ifanc ledled Cymru. Ar hyn o bryd rydym yn targedu tua 47,000 o bobl ifanc bob blwyddyn. Mae hynny’n ddechrau da. Hefyd ar entrepreneuriaeth, cyfeiriodd Alun Ffred at rôl y trydydd sector. Rwyf wedi cael profiad uniongyrchol o daith hyfryd ar y rheilffordd a grybwyllodd. Yr oedd yn hollol hyfryd, ond mae hefyd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth i’r economi leol o ran twristiaeth ac i ragolygon cyflogaeth yn yr ardal honno. Dyna lle y gwelwch entrepreneuriaeth yn cydio.

There are wider issues in relation to the matters that have been raised with me relating to procurement. The comments made by David Rees on procurement, particularly with regard to what the construction sector needs to look at, were well made. We must recognise that procurement is a land designed for lawyers because of some of the issues surrounding it. It is a land to which an element of common sense needs to be introduced if we are to make procurement policies in Wales work for the benefit of companies in Wales. I am very pleased that the first port of call for my construction priority sector will be to look at some of these procurement issues.

Mae materion ehangach mewn perthynas â’r materion a godwyd gyda mi yn ymwneud â chaffael. Roedd y sylwadau a wnaed gan David Rees ar gaffael, yn enwedig o ran yr hyn y mae angen i’r sector adeiladu edrych arno, wedi cael eu gwneud yn dda. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod caffael yn dir a gynlluniwyd ar gyfer cyfreithwyr oherwydd rhai o’r materion sy’n gysylltiedig â hynny. Mae’n dir y mae angen cyflwyno elfen o synnwyr cyffredin iddo os ydym i wneud polisïau caffael yng Nghymru i weithio er budd cwmnïau yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn falch iawn mai’r man galw cyntaf ar gyfer fy sector blaenoriaeth adeiladu fydd i edrych ar rai o’r materion caffael hyn.

Julie Morgan referred to the innovation that has been taking place in her constituency. It is remarkable to see what innovation goes on across the whole of Wales. The establishment last year of the role of chief scientific adviser with a science advisory committee shows our strategic approach to innovation. I am considering a research, development and innovation fund to provide businesses with the ability to develop and commercialise the knowledge and intellectual property surrounding new projects, which I think are key issues, and to provide assistance with several stages of research, development, innovation, processing, including technical and commercial feasibility studies—because that is sometimes the area in which individuals are let down—industrial research, experimental development and new product exploitation.

Cyfeiriodd Julie Morgan at yr arloesedd sydd wedi bod yn digwydd yn ei hetholaeth. Mae’n rhyfeddol gweld pa arloesi sy’n digwydd ar draws Cymru gyfan. Roedd sefydlu y llynedd rôl prif gynghorydd gwyddonol gyda phwyllgor ymgynghorol gwyddoniaeth yn dangos ein dull strategol o arloesi. Yr wyf yn ystyried cronfa ymchwil, datblygu ac arloesi er mwyn darparu busnesau â’r gallu i ddatblygu a masnacheiddio’r wybodaeth a’r eiddo deallusol o amgylch prosiectau newydd, yr wyf yn credu eu bod yn faterion allweddol, ac i roi cymorth gyda sawl cam o ymchwil, datblygu, arloesedd, prosesu, gan gynnwys astudiaethau dichonoldeb technegol a masnachol—oherwydd dyna weithiau yr ardal lle mae unigolion yn cael eu gadael i lawr—ymchwil diwydiannol, datblygiad arbrofol ac ymelwa cynnyrch newydd.

Turning to some of the points that were made by the mover of the amendments, on regulatory burdens, the examples you gave were, in the main, UK-based and EU-based. However, I can say that we are committed to reducing regulation for business within our control. We will carry out regulatory impact assessments on Welsh Government legislation and seek to streamline, simplify and codify existing legislation. On innovation funding, we have innovation vouchers, with grant funding of up to £10,000 available twice in a 12-month period. So, that is a good start. The points on training were well made across the Chamber.

Gan droi at rai o’r pwyntiau a wnaed gan gynigydd y gwelliannau, ar feichiau rheoleiddio, roedd yr enghreifftiau a roesoch, ar y cyfan, yn y Deyrnas Unedig a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Fodd bynnag, gallaf ddweud ein bod wedi ymrwymo i leihau rheoleiddio ar gyfer busnes o fewn ein rheolaeth. Byddwn yn cynnal asesiadau effaith reoleiddiol ar ddeddfwriaeth Llywodraeth Cymru a cheisio symleiddio a chyfundrefnu deddfwriaeth bresennol. O ran cyllid arloesi, mae gennym dalebau arloesi, gyda chyllid grant o hyd at £10,000 ar gael ddwywaith mewn cyfnod o 12 mis. Felly, mae hynny’n ddechrau da. Gwnaed y pwyntiau ar hyfforddiant yn dda ar draws y Siambr.

In conclusion, I thought that I would indulge myself, for once, by commenting on some of the remarks made by Mark Isherwood. He spoke about procurement. I picked up on something that Digby Jones said on Radio 4 the other morning. He said:

I gloi, roeddwn yn meddwl y byddwn yn caniatáu fy hun, am unwaith, i wneud sylw ar rai o’r sylwadau a wnaed gan Mark Isherwood. Siaradodd am gaffael. Clywais rywbeth a ddywedodd Digby Jones ar Radio 4 y bore o’r blaen. Meddai:

‘Firstly, we have a procurement programme that says, unlike the Germans and the French, we know the price of everything but we know the value of nothing’.

Yn gyntaf, mae gennym raglen gaffael sy’n dweud, yn wahanol i’r Almaenwyr a’r Ffrancwyr, ein bod yn gwybod pris popeth ond gwerth dim.

He said that, when it is about procurement and good value, we should be thinking ‘What about the jobs?’ He agreed with a union representative who had said that these skills will go on forever, saying that he was ‘absolutely right’. He continued that we should instead be thinking:

Dywedodd, pan mae’n ymwneud â chaffael a gwerth da, dylem fod yn meddwl ‘Beth am y swyddi?’ Cytunodd gyda chynrychiolydd undeb a oedd wedi dweud y bydd y sgiliau hyn yn mynd ymlaen am byth, gan ddweud ei fod yn ‘llygad ei le’. Parhaodd y dylem fod yn meddwl yn lle hynny:

“How can value in society be enhanced by keeping those skills?” Secondly, what about small businesses supplying into the bigger businesses? And thirdly, what about actually using steady, planned, predictable Government procurement to get there? Instead of that: first whiff of gunshot “Let’s go and buy our trains from Germany and not from Derby”. Frankly, whichever Government is in power, they do not get it.

“Sut y gall gwerth mewn cymdeithas gael ei wella drwy gadw’r sgiliau hynny?’’ Yn ail, beth am fusnesau bach sy’n cyflenwi’r busnesau mwy? Ac yn drydydd, beth am ddefnyddio caffael rhagweladwy’r Llywodraeth, sydd yn gyson ac wedi’i gynllunio, i gyrraedd yno? Yn lle hynny: yr awgrym cyntaf o broblem “Dewch i ni gael prynu ein trenau o’r Almaen ac nid o Derby”. A dweud y gwir, pa Lywodraeth bynnag a fydd mewn grym, nid ydynt yn deall hyn.

Well, the Government here gets it; Whitehall might not get it, but we get the issues of procurement here.

Wel, mae’r Llywodraeth yma’n deall: efallai nad yw Whitehall yn deall, ond rydym yn deall materion caffael yma.

4.00 p.m.

Antoinette Sandbach: Nick Ramsay’s contribution highlighted the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises to the Welsh economy. This has been a vital debate and, in particular, the call for business rate relief seems to have been listened to by the Minister, at least in part, and I am sure that we are all delighted to hear that she is setting up a group that will look at that policy.

Antoinette Sandbach: Amlygodd gyfraniad Nick Ramsay bwysigrwydd mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint i economi Cymru. Mae hon wedi bod yn ddadl hanfodol ac, yn arbennig, ymddengys bod y Gweinidog wedi gwrando ar yr alwad am ryddhad ardrethi busnes, o leiaf yn rhannol, ac yr wyf yn sicr ein bod i gyd wrth ein bodd o glywed ei bod yn sefydlu grŵp a fydd yn edrych ar y polisi hwnnw.

Eluned Parrott made a very important point about regulation and the barrier to business that that creates. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales has said that the Welsh Government should resist the temptation to use legislative and regulatory powers in ways that adversely affect business competitiveness. The Confederation of British Industry in Wales has said that, although the Welsh Government has increasing powers, it does not use those powers to deregulate. I am sure that everyone will have been delighted by the Minister’s indication today that the Government is actively looking to deregulate. We need a freeing-up in Wales; we need to make Wales a place in which it is easier and better to do business.

Gwnaeth Eluned Parrott bwynt pwysig iawn ynghylch rheoleiddio a’r rhwystr i fusnes y mae hynny’n ei greu. Mae Sefydliad Cyfrifwyr Siartredig Cymru a Lloegr wedi dweud y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru wrthsefyll y demtasiwn i ddefnyddio pwerau deddfwriaethol a rheoliadol mewn ffyrdd sy’n cael effaith andwyol ar natur gystadleuol busnes. Mae Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yng Nghymru wedi dweud, er bod gan Lywodraeth Cymru bwerau cynyddol, nad yw’n defnyddio’r pwerau hynny i ddadreoleiddio. Yr wyf yn sicr y byddai pawb wrth eu bodd gydag awgrym y Gweinidog heddiw bod y Llywodraeth yn mynd ati i edrych ar ddadreoleiddio. Mae angen rhyddhau yng Nghymru; mae angen i ni wneud Cymru yn le lle mae’n haws ac yn well i wneud busnes.

I was very grateful to Suzy Davies for her contribution. She raised the important point, which was also raised by David Rees, of the need for a sustainable and balanced economy and emphasised the importance of education and training. However, I suggest that it would be better to give the funds that go into the union training fund to employers in order to allow them to decide what training is most appropriate.

Roeddwn yn ddiolchgar iawn i Suzy Davies am ei chyfraniad. Cododd bwynt pwysig, a godwyd hefyd gan David Rees, am yr angen am economi gynaliadwy a chytbwys a phwysleisiodd bwysigrwydd addysg ac hyfforddiant. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn awgrymu y byddai’n well rhoi’r arian sy’n mynd i mewn i’r gronfa hyfforddiant undeb i gyflogwyr er mwyn eu galluogi i benderfynu pa hyfforddiant sydd fwyaf priodol.

Mark Isherwood rightly pointed out that the UK Government has been funding 100,000 work experience places and also pointed out the importance of apprenticeship schemes, which are vital to give people the opportunity to develop skills, to perhaps set up their own small businesses following the conclusion of that apprenticeship, or to find employment.

Nododd Mark Isherwood yn gywir y ffaith bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi bod yn ariannu 100,000 o leoedd profiad gwaith a nododd hefyd bwysigrwydd cynlluniau prentisiaeth, sy’n hanfodol i roi cyfle i bobl ddatblygu sgiliau, efallai i sefydlu eu busnesau bach eu hunain yn dilyn diwedd y brentisiaeth honno, neu i ddod o hyd i gyflogaeth.

Alun Ffred Jones gave the example of the entrepreneur scheme run by Gwynedd Council. It is schemes of that sort, which encourage local businesses in those areas, that are perhaps most responsive to local needs.

Rhoddodd Alun Ffred Jones yr enghraifft o gynllun entrepreneur sy’n cael ei redeg gan Gyngor Gwynedd. Cynlluniau o’r fath, sy’n annog busnesau lleol yn yr ardaloedd hynny, sydd efallai yn ymateb fwyaf i anghenion lleol.

Russell George’s contribution in respect of the Dynamo project clearly struck a chord with the Minister, and I am delighted that she is going to take that forward. Indeed, Russell pointed out, very importantly, that the Federation of Small Business, of which I, too, am a member, has said that, if every small business in this country were to employ one extra person, we would wipe out unemployment. That seems to be a target that it might not be too difficult to encourage people to try to meet.

Gwnaeth cyfraniad Russell George mewn perthynas â’r prosiect Dynamo daro tant gyda’r Gweinidog, ac rwy’n falch iawn ei bod yn mynd i fwrw ymlaen â hynny. Yn wir, nododd Russell, yn bwysig iawn, bod y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach, yr wyf innau yn aelod ohono, wedi dweud, os byddai pob busnes bach yn y wlad hon yn cyflogi un person ychwanegol, byddem yn dileu diweithdra. Mae hynny’n darged efallai na fyddai’n rhy anodd i annog pobl i gwrdd ag ef.

I am delighted that the Minister has indicated that she will look at the barriers to business. That is clearly important in Wales. There is a perception that there are barriers to business in Wales, and, again, perhaps that was reinforced by the delay in announcing enterprise zones in Wales. It is great that that message is now going out loud and clear.

Rwyf wrth fy modd bod y Gweinidog wedi nodi y bydd yn edrych ar y rhwystrau i fusnesau. Mae’n amlwg bod hynny yn bwysig yng Nghymru. Ceir canfyddiad bod yna rwystrau i fusnes yng Nghymru, ac, unwaith eto, efallai bod hyn wedi cael ei atgyfnerthu gan yr oedi wrth gyhoeddi ardaloedd menter yng Nghymru. Mae’n wych bod y neges bellach yn uchel ac yn glir.

Finally, I urge businesses to take advantage of the cuts that will be made to corporation tax, which will be implemented by the UK Government over the next five years in order to encourage further investment by businesses and to encourage them to grow. Overall, this has been a fantastic debate. The only person who I may have missed out is Julie Morgan, who highlighted the importance of the research that has taken place and the very real impact that that research can have in growing businesses in Wales. It has been a useful and informative debate.

Yn olaf, yr wyf yn annog busnesau i fanteisio ar y toriadau a fydd yn cael eu gwneud i’r dreth gorfforaeth, a fydd yn cael ei weithredu gan Lywodraeth y DU dros y pum mlynedd nesaf er mwyn annog buddsoddiad pellach gan fusnesau a’u hannog i dyfu. Yn gyffredinol, mae hyn wedi bod yn ddadl wych. Yr unig berson efallai fy mod wedi gadael allan yw Julie Morgan, a dynnodd sylw at bwysigrwydd y gwaith ymchwil sydd wedi digwydd a’r effaith go iawn y gall yr ymchwil hwnnw ei gael mewn tyfu busnesau yng Nghymru. Mae wedi bod yn ddadl defnyddiol ac yn llawn gwybodaeth.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there is objection. Therefore, I defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad. Felly, gohiriaf yr holl bleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.

Dadl Plaid Cymru
Plaid Cymru Debate

Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth
District General Hospitals

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, amendments 2 and 4 in the name of William Graham and amendment 3 in the name of Peter Black. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt, gwelliannau 2 a 4 yn enw William Graham a gwelliant 3 yn enw Peter Black. Os derbynnir gwelliant 1, bydd gwelliant 2 yn cael ei ddad-ddethol.

Cynnig NDM4812 Jocelyn Davies

Motion NDM4812 Jocelyn Davies

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1) Yn credu bod Cymru’n cael ei gwasanaethu’n dda gan ei rhwydwaith o Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth; a

1) Believes that Wales is well served by its network of District General Hospitals; and

2) Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i wneud datganiad clir na fydd yn caniatau i Fyrddau Iechyd Lleol ganoli gwasanaethau oddi wrth Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth.

2) Calls on the Welsh Government to make a clear statement that it will not allow LHBs to centralise services away from District General Hospitals.

Elin Jones: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

Elin Jones: I move the motion.

Mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn rhwydwaith o sefydliadau sy’n gwella, trin a gofalu am bobl sy’n sâl. Nifer cyfyngedig o ysbytai arbenigol sydd yng Nghymru, a’r rheini ar lefel ranbarthol. Mae rhwydwaith ehangach o ysbytai cyffredinol, gyda chymorth pellach yn cael ei ddarparu gan rwydwaith o ysbytai cymunedol. Mae’r sefyllfa hon yn cael ei disgrifio yng ngwelliant 3 a gyflwynwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr ydym yn hapus i gefnogi’r gwelliant hwnnw.

The health service is made up of a network of bodies that heal, treat and care for those who are ill. There are a restricted number of specialist hospitals in Wales, and those are on a regional level. There is a wider network of general hospitals with further support provided by a network of community hospitals. This situation is described in amendment 3, tabled by the Liberal Democrats. We are happy to support that amendment.

O’r ysbytai hyn, y rhai sydd yn yr haen ganol, sef yr ysbytai sy’n rheoli taith y claf yn aml, yw’r ysbytai cyffredinol. Yr ysbytai hynny sy’n derbyn cleifion mewn argyfwng, geni plant ac yn ymgymryd â thriniaethau arferol. Yr ysbytai hyn hefyd sy’n penderfynu a oes angen symud claf i ysbyty rhanbarthol ar gyfer triniaeth arbenigol. Mae’r cleifion a’r bobl sy’n derbyn gwasanaethau gan yr ysbytai cyffredinol hyn yn deall ac yn derbyn bod angen teithio i ysbyty rhanbarthol i gael triniaeth arbenigol. Mae’r arfer hon wedi bodoli ers blynyddoedd ac yn amlwg yn mynd i barhau, er lles y claf.

Of those hospitals, those that are in the middle layer, and which often manage the patient’s journey through care, are the general hospitals. It is those hospitals that admit emergency patients, deal with childbirth and undertake general procedures. It is also those hospitals that decide if a patient needs to be moved to a regional hospital for specialist treatment. The patients and people who receive services in these general hospitals understand and accept that they will need to travel to a regional hospital for specialist treatment. This practice has been undertaken for years and will obviously continue, for the sake of the patient.

Wrth osod y cynnig hwn gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw, nid yw Plaid Cymru’n disgwyl y bydd pob gwasanaeth ar gael ym mhob ysbyty cyffredinol. Mae rôl yr ysbytai arbenigol rhanbarthol yn hollbwysig. Ar adegau, mae angen gwell patrwm gwaith rhwng yr ysbytai rhanbarthol a’r ysbytai cyffredinol. Serch hynny, mae rhai o’r rhwydweithiau clinigol sydd wedi datblygu dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf yn fodelau clodwiw iawn, yn enwedig o ran y defnydd a wneir o dechnoleg fodern telegyfathrebu gan arbenigwyr rhanbarthol a meddygon mewn ysbytai cyffredinol i wneud gwaith diagnostig a darparu gofal ôl-driniaethol.

In tabling this motion for debate by the Assembly today, Plaid Cymru does not expect every service to be available in every general hospital. The role of the specialist regional hospitals is of paramount importance. At times, there needs to be a better distribution of work between regional and general hospitals. Despite that, some of the clinical networks that have been developed in recent years utilise very commendable models, especially in terms of the use made of modern telecommunications by regional specialists and doctors in general hospitals when undertaking diagnostic work and in the provision of post-operative care.

Derbyniaf hefyd fod gwasanaethau arbenigol newydd yn datblygu yn y GIG modern. Mae lleoli’r gwasanaethau hynny a’u darparu ar gyfer poblogaeth wasgaredig yn her i’r GIG. Serch hynny, mae ystod o wasanaethau sy’n cael eu darparu ym mhob ysbyty cyffredinol ar hyn o bryd sy’n diffinio’r ysbytai hynny ac yn eu cynnal fel unedau clinigol cynaliadwy: gwasanaethau argyfwng, gwasanaethau mamolaeth llawn, llawdriniaeth mewn argyfwng, llawdriniaeth gyffredinol, llawdriniaeth orthopedig, ac, yn enwedig, llawdriniaeth y colon a’r rhefr, a rhai gwasanaethau cardiaidd a chanser. Os yw rhai o’r arbenigeddau hyn yn cael eu symud oddi wrth ysbytai cyffredinol, bydd yn peryglu cynaliadwyedd yr ysbytai cyffredinol hynny ac yn israddio’r gwasanaethau hynny, gan arwain yn y pen draw at wasanaeth na fydd yn ddim mwy nag uned argyfwng a sefydlogi, gyda’r claf yn cael ei symud ymlaen i gael triniaeth bellach.

I also accept that new specialist services are being developed in the modern NHS. Locating those services and providing them to a scattered population is a challenge for the NHS. However, a range of services is currently offered in every general hospital that defines those hospitals and supports them as sustainable clinical units: emergency services, full maternity services, emergency surgery, general surgery, orthopaedic surgery, and, especially, colon and rectal surgery, and some cardiac and cancer services. If some of these specialisms are moved from general hospitals, that will threaten the sustainability of those general hospitals and downgrade those services, which will lead ultimately to a service that will be no more than an emergency and stabilisation unit, with the patient being moved on for further treatment.

Gwyddom oll fod gan bobl ymlyniad emosiynol iawn tuag at eu hysbyty lleol. Fodd bynnag, credaf mai’r rhai sy’n pryderu fwyaf am y cynlluniau i israddio gwasanaethau mewn ysbytai cyffredinol yw’r staff sy’n gweithio ynddynt: y meddygon a’r nyrsys. Maent yn pryderu am ddiogelwch y cleifion. Ar hyn o bryd, nid yw cynlluniau’r byrddau iechyd lleol ar adolygu gwasanaethau clinigol wedi’u cyhoeddi. Mae’r cynlluniau hyn wedi bod yn cael eu datblygu ers oddeutu 12 mis erbyn hyn. Yr oedd rhai o’r cynlluniau’n barod cyn yr etholiad ym mis Mai. Felly, er nad yw’r cynlluniau hyn yn gyhoeddus, mae arwyddion clir wedi ymddangos o nifer o gyfeiriadau fod y cynlluniau hyn yn mynd i olygu canoli ac israddio gwasanaethau ledled Cymru. Yr arwydd cliriaf o’r sefyllfa hon, efallai, oedd y sylwadau a wnaed gan y Gweinidog ei hun yr wythnos diwethaf. Dywedodd y byddai penderfyniadau anodd yn wynebu’r byrddau iechyd lleol, a dywedodd ei bod yn barod i’w cefnogi yn hynny o beth ac i gymryd y fflac gwleidyddol. Mae’r gwelliant a gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth heddiw yn atgyfnerthu’r pwynt hwn. Ni allaf ddehongli’r gwelliant hwn fel unrhyw beth ond carte blanche i’r byrddau iechyd i wneud y newidiadau hyn yn eu hardaloedd. Mae hyn yn wahanol iawn i agwedd y Llywodraeth flaenorol a’r Gweinidog blaenorol, a roddodd gyfeiriad cryf o’r canol er mwyn cefnogi ysbytai cyffredinol, adeiladu arnynt a’u moderneiddio.

We all know that people have a very emotional attachment to their local hospitals. However, I think that those who are most concerned about the plans to downgrade services in general hospitals are the staff who work there: the doctors and nurses. They are concerned about the safety of their patients. At the moment, the plans of the local health boards following the review of clinical services have not been published. These plans have been in preparation for 12 months. Some of the plans were ready before the elections in May. Therefore, although these plans are not publicly available, there are clear indications in many places that these plans will mean the centralisation and downgrading of services across Wales. The clearest indication of this may be the comments made by the Minister last week. She said that the local health boards would face difficult decisions and that she was willing to support them in that and to take the political flak for them. The amendment that has been tabled by the Government reinforces that point. I cannot interpret that amendment as anything but a carte blanche for the health boards to make such changes in their areas. This is in stark contrast to the attitude of the previous Government and Minister who gave strong direction from the centre to support, grow and modernise general hospitals.

Mae’r Gweinidog presennol wedi dweud yn y Siambr mai hi sy’n rhedeg y gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, mae gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn rhoi rhwydd hynt i’r byrddau iechyd lleol gynllunio gwasanaethau fel y mynnant. I bwy y mae’r byrddau iechyd lleol yn atebol, felly? Ychydig iawn o atebolrwydd lleol sydd ganddynt, yn sgîl y penderfyniad a wnaed i beidio â chael presenoldeb sylweddol i gynghorau sir arnynt. Cytunaf â’r penderfyniad hwnnw, er y gwyddom fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi gwrthwynebu creu byrddau iechyd lleol mewn ardaloedd fel ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda, er enghraifft. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd nad oes gan y byrddau iechyd lleol atebolrwydd lleol, yr wyf yn disgwyl atebolrwydd cenedlaethol—i’r Gweinidog yn gyntaf, ac yna, drwy’r Gweinidog, i’r Senedd ddemocrataidd hon.

The current Minister has said in the Chamber that she is running the health service in Wales. However, the Government amendment gives the local health boards free rein to plan services as they wish. To whom are the local health boards answerable? There is scant local accountability, following the decision that was taken that county councils would not have a substantial presence on the LHBs. I agree with that decision, although we know that the Liberal Democrats have opposed the creation of local health boards in areas such as the Hywel Dda Local Health Board area, for example. However, because the local health boards are not accountable locally, I expect national accountability—to the Minister in the first place and then, through the Minister, to this democratic Senedd.

O gefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth, mae’r atebolrwydd hwnnw yn diflannu ac mae cefnogaeth yn cael ei rhoi i’r byrddau iechyd lleol i wneud beth bynnag a ddymunant heb atebolrwydd lleol na chenedlaethol. Beth bynnag yr ydych yn ei feddwl am gynnig Plaid Cymru, peidiwch er mwyn popeth â chefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth os ydych yn credu y dylid cael atebolrwydd democrataidd mewn penderfyniadau ar ddyfodol y GIG.

Support for the Government’s amendment would see that accountability disappear, with support going to the local health boards to do whatever they wish without local or national accountability. Whatever you think of Plaid Cymru’s motion, for goodness’s sake do not support the Government amendment if you believe that decisions taken on the future of the NHS should be democratically accountable.

Mae Plaid Cymru yn derbyn bod angen i’r GIG newid yn barhaus, a bod ffyrdd newydd o ddarparu gwasanaethau a thriniaethau newydd yn datblygu drwy’r amser. Yr ydym hefyd yn deall ei bod hi’n bosibl y bydd yn rhaid torri rhai gwasanaethau yn y GIG oherwydd diffyg cyllid, a bydd yn rhaid i’r Gweinidog a’r byrddau iechyd lleol ddweud yn eglur wrth eu cymunedau lleol a ni fel gwleidyddion pa wasanaethau sy’n cael eu torri o’r herwydd. Os bydd angen ailgyflunio gwasanaeth yn llwyr, mae’n rhaid i gleifion a chymunedau gael gwybodaeth lawn am y newidiadau hynny a chael ar ddeall mai er lles y claf y bydd unrhyw newid yn cael ei hyrwyddo, yn hytrach nag er hwylustod rheolwyr y bwrdd iechyd lleol a rhai clinigwyr.

Plaid Cymru accepts that the NHS needs to change constantly, and that new ways of delivering services and new treatments are developed all the time. We also understand that it might be necessary to cut some NHS services because of funding constraints, and the Minister and the local health boards will have to clearly inform local communities and us, the politicians, about which services are being cut for that reason. If a service needs to be reconfigured entirely, then the patients and the communities must have all the information about those changes and be persuaded that it is for the benefit of the patient that any change is promoted, rather than the expediency of local health board managers and some clinicians.

Daeth Peter Black i’r Gadair am 4.11 p.m.
Peter Black took the Chair at 4.11 p.m.

Yr oedd gan Victoria Winckler flog digon diddorol yr wythnos hon ar y ddadl yr ydym yn ei chynnal. Yr oedd yn dweud nad yw fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol yn ddigonol i roi hyder i gleifion am unrhyw newidiadau. Yr oedd yn cynnig bod angen fforwm cleifion ochr yn ochr â’r fforwm clinigol newydd. Mae’r ddadl hon yn gyfle i ni yn y Cynulliad roi arweiniad i’r byrddau iechyd lleol fod ysbytai cyffredinol yn rhan ganolog o ddarpariaeth y GIG. Yn absenoldeb arweiniad gan y Gweinidog, mae cyfle gan y Cynulliad i roi’r arweiniad hwnnw drwy gefnogi cynnig Plaid Cymru, wedi’i ddiwygio gan welliannau 3 a 4.

Victoria Winckler wrote a rather interesting blog entry this week on this debate. She said that the national clinical forum was not enough to instil confidence in patients about any changes. She suggested that a patients’ forum was needed alongside the new clinical forum. This debate is an opportunity for us in the Assembly to give a lead to the local health boards that general hospitals are a central part of NHS provision. In the absence of such a lead by the Minister, the Assembly has an opportunity to do so by supporting Plaid Cymru’s motion, as amended by amendments 3 and 4.

Gwelliant 1 Jane Hutt

Amendment 1 Jane Hutt

Ym mhwynt 2, dileu ‘wneud datganiad clir na fydd yn caniatáu i Fyrddau Iechyd Lleol ganoli gwasanaethau oddi wrth Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth’ ac yn ei le rhoi ‘gefnogi Byrddau Iechyd Lleol wrth iddynt gyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau i gynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau mewn modd priodol.’

In point 2, delete ‘make a clear statement that it will not allow LHBs to centralise services away from District General Hospitals’ and replace with ‘support LHBs as they fulfil their responsibilities to plan and deliver services appropriately.’

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Lesley Griffiths): I move amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 2 William Graham

Amendment 2 William Graham

Ym mhwynt 2) rhoi ‘llawdriniaethau brys a chyffredinol’ ar ôl ‘gwasanaethau’.

In point 2) insert ‘emergency and general surgery’ after ‘centralise’.

Gwelliant 4 William Graham

Amendment 4 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at end of motion:

Yn credu y dylai’r Fforwm Clinigol Cenedlaethol, pan gaiff ei sefydlu, ystyried anghenion Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth wrth aildrefnu’r GIG yn y dyfodol.

Believes that the National Clinical Forum, when established, must take into consideration the needs of District General Hospitals in any future reorganisation of the NHS.

Darren Millar: I move amendments 2 and 4 in the name of William Graham.

Darren Millar: Cynigiaf welliannau 2 a 4 yn enw William Graham.

This is an important and timely debate, given the reviews that are taking place across the country, as Elin Jones quite rightly pointed out. There is no doubt that district general hospitals are an integral part of the Welsh NHS, as I am sure that we would all agree, and I do not disagree with the first point in Plaid Cymru’s motion that Wales has been served well by its network of district general hospitals over the decades. I also want to pay tribute to the hardworking staff who deliver top-quality care day in, day out in district general hospitals across Wales.

Mae hon yn ddadl bwysig ac amserol, o ystyried yr adolygiadau sy’n cael eu cynnal ar draws y wlad, fel y nododd Elin Jones yn gwbl briodol. Nid oes amheuaeth bod ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn rhan annatod o’r GIG yng Nghymru, fel rwy’n siŵr y byddem i gyd yn cytuno, ac nid wyf yn anghytuno â’r pwynt cyntaf yng nghynnig Plaid Cymru bod Cymru wedi cael ei gwasanaethu’n dda gan ei rhwydwaith o ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth dros y degawdau. Rwyf hefyd eisiau talu teyrnged i’r staff gweithgar sy’n darparu gofal o’r ansawdd gorau ddydd ar ôl dydd mewn ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth ar draws Cymru.

I appreciate that Elin, as the Plaid spokesperson, went into some detail about the rationale behind the motion, and I do not think that there is a great deal of disagreement about this. However, the difficulty that we have with the motion is that it gives the impression that all of the services that are available in district general hospitals as they stand should remain and never change. I do not accept that. There is always room for improvement in the way that services are planned, and I know, Elin, that you agree that it may sometimes be appropriate for elective surgery or diagnostic services to be provided at centres of excellence, or for district general hospitals to specialise in certain areas—I am thinking about complex hip replacements, for example, or certain cancer diagnostics. So, although I believe that we are well served, there is room for improvement and some change may be necessary. We certainly need to adapt to the new treatments that are available.

Yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi bod Elin, fel llefarydd Plaid, wedi manylu cryn dipyn am y rhesymeg y tu ôl i’r cynnig, ac nid wyf yn credu bod llawer iawn o anghytundeb ynglŷn â hyn. Fodd bynnag, yr anhawster sydd gennym o ran y cynnig yw ei fod yn rhoi’r argraff y dylai’r holl wasanaethau sydd ar gael mewn ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, fel ag y maent ar hyn o bryd, aros a byth newid. Nid wyf yn derbyn hynny. Mae bob amser lle i wella yn y ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau eu cynllunio, ac yr wyf yn gwybod, Elin, eich bod yn cytuno y gall fod yn briodol weithiau i lawdriniaeth ddewisol neu wasanaethau diagnostig gael eu darparu mewn canolfannau rhagoriaeth, neu bod ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn arbenigo mewn rhai ardaloedd—yr wyf yn meddwl am waith adnewyddu clun cymhleth, er enghraifft, neu achosion penodol o ddiagnosteg canser. Felly, er fy mod yn credu ein bod yn cael ein gwasanaethu’n dda, mae lle i wella ac efallai y bydd angen rhywfaint o newid. Yn sicr mae angen i ni ymaddasu i’r triniaethau newydd sydd ar gael.

Having said that, there are certain hallmarks that all district general hospitals should bear. Elin quite rightly pointed out that all district general hospitals should have top-quality consultant-led maternity and paediatric services, and fully functioning accident and emergency departments, backed up by emergency general surgery teams that have the ability to deliver a service in the event of an emergency. They should also be able to deliver low level or more general orthopaedic services, as well as colorectal and cardiac services. I accept that. However, if you take any of those services away, you cease to have a district general hospital. I do not think that the Government understands that that is the case and that we are at risk of losing district general hospitals, because some of these services will face the axe in the future. That is why we have put in amendment 2, which looks specifically at emergency and general surgery services.

Wedi dweud hynny, mae yna rai nodweddion y dylai pob ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth eu cael. Nodwyd yn gywir gan Elin y dylai pob ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth gael gwasanaethau mamolaeth a phediatreg o’r ansawdd gorau, dan arweiniad ymgynghorydd, ac adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys cwbl weithredol, a ategir gan dimau llawdriniaethau cyffredinol brys sydd â’r gallu i ddarparu gwasanaeth mewn achos o argyfwng. Dylent hefyd allu cyflwyno gwasanaethau orthopedig lefel isel neu fwy cyffredinol, yn ogystal â gwasanaethau’r colon a’r rhefr a’r galon. Yr wyf yn derbyn hynny. Fodd bynnag, os cymerwch unrhyw un o’r gwasanaethau hynny i ffwrdd, nid oes gennych ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth. Nid wyf yn credu bod y Llywodraeth yn deall bod hynny’n wir a’n bod mewn perygl o golli ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, gan y bydd rhai o’r gwasanaethau hyn yn wynebu’r fwyell yn y dyfodol. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno gwelliant 2, sy’n edrych yn benodol ar y gwasanaethau brys a llawfeddygaeth gyffredinol.

4.15 p.m.

We also reject amendment 1, which is in the name of Jane Hutt. It effectively gives carte blanche to the local health boards. It makes it absolutely clear that the Minister will support them come what may and regardless of public opinion or support, and regardless of the concerns expressed by clinicians—they are expressing concerns about some of the plans that are emerging. Regardless of their opinion, it appears that the Minister will give her full support to local health boards in the implementation of those plans. That is totally inappropriate. At the end of the day, we are answerable to the electorate, not to local health boards. The Minister needs to understand that. The electorate is not stupid: if you give people unbiased, top-quality information, they will make their own decisions about what is appropriate in their own areas. We believe that the democratic deficit that seems to exist within the national health service as it stands needs to be addressed.

Yr ydym hefyd yn gwrthod gwelliant 1, sydd yn enw Jane Hutt. Mae’n rhoi rhwydd hynt i’r byrddau iechyd lleol. Mae’n ei wneud yn gwbl glir y bydd y Gweinidog yn eu cefnogi doed a ddelo, waeth beth am farn neu gymorth y cyhoedd, a waeth beth fo’r pryderon a fynegwyd gan glinigwyr—maent yn mynegi pryderon ynghylch rhai o’r cynlluniau sy’n dod i’r amlwg. Waeth beth yw eu barn hwy, mae’n ymddangos y bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi ei chefnogaeth lawn i fyrddau iechyd lleol wrth weithredu’r cynlluniau hynny. Mae hynny’n gwbl amhriodol. Ar ddiwedd y dydd, yr ydym yn atebol i’r etholwyr, nid i fyrddau iechyd lleol. Mae angen i’r Gweinidog ddeall hynny. Nid yw’r etholwyr yn dwp: os byddwch yn rhoi gwybodaeth ddiduedd, o’r radd flaenaf i bobl, byddant yn gwneud eu penderfyniadau eu hunain am yr hyn sy’n briodol yn eu hardaloedd eu hunain. Credwn fod angen sylw ar y diffyg democrataidd sydd fel petai’n bodoli o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol fel y mae’n sefyll.

We will support amendment 3, tabled by the Liberal Democrats in the name of Peter Black, although with the caveats over elective surgery services and diagnostic services. We recognise, as they do, that those services are sometimes best provided in a different way.

Byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 3, a gyflwynwyd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn enw Peter Black, er gyda’r cafeatau dros wasanaethau llawdriniaeth ddewisol a gwasanaethau diagnostig. Rydym yn cydnabod, fel y gwnânt hwy, ei fod weithiau’n well i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hynny mewn ffordd wahanol.

Our amendment 4 refers to the national clinical forum that was announced by the Minister last week outside this institution—we are yet to have a single statement on this matter made in the Chamber so that we have an opportunity to cross-examine the Minister on the purpose of its establishment. It is a significant policy shift, and we believe that it does nothing more than attempt to create a clinical shield around the Minister, because unpopular things will happen in the NHS in the near future. Minister, you cannot shirk responsibility for the Welsh NHS. The buck stops with you, and I do not think that there will be any confidence in Mid and West Wales or in North Wales about the person you have agreed to appoint as the chair of the national clinical forum, given the fact that that individual made it clear to the Public Accounts Committee last year that there are too many consultant-led maternity units in Wales. If that is his opinion, and you are appointing him as chair of that clinical forum, you need to stand up and say what you will do about those maternity units, about the future of our district general hospitals and, in particular, about those emergency and general surgery services, because it appears that you endorse some of the decisions that may be emerging in the near future.

Mae ein gwelliant 4 yn cyfeirio at y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol a gyhoeddwyd gan y Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf y tu allan i’r sefydliad hwn—yr ydym eto i gael yr un datganiad ar y mater hwn yn y Siambr fel bod gennym y cyfle i groesholi’r Gweinidog ar ddiben ei sefydlu. Mae’n newid sylweddol yn y polisi, a chredwn ei fod yn gwneud dim mwy na cheisio creu gwarchodfa glinigol o amgylch y Gweinidog, oherwydd bydd pethau amhoblogaidd yn digwydd yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn y dyfodol agos. Weinidog, ni allwch osgoi cyfrifoldeb ar gyfer GIG Cymru. Mae’r cyfrifoldeb gyda chi, ac ni chredaf y byddai unrhyw ffydd yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru neu yng Ngogledd Cymru am y person yr ydych wedi cytuno i benodi fel cadeirydd y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol, o ystyried y ffaith bod yr unigolyn hwnnw wedi egluro i’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus y llynedd bod gormod o unedau mamolaeth dan arweiniad ymgynghorwyr yng Nghymru. Os dyna ei farn, ac os penodwch ef yn gadeirydd y fforwm clinigol hwnnw, mae angen i chi sefyll i fyny a dweud beth y byddwch yn ei wneud am yr unedau mamolaeth hynny, am ddyfodol ein hysbytai dosbarth cyffredinol ac, yn benodol, am y gwasanaethau argyfwng a llawfeddygaeth gyffredinol hynny, oherwydd y mae’n ymddangos eich bod yn cymeradwyo rhai o’r penderfyniadau a ddaw i’r amlwg, efallai, yn y dyfodol agos.

Gwelliant 3 Peter Black

Amendment 3 Peter Black

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add new point at end of motion:

Yn credu bod cleifion yn cael eu gwasanaethu orau gan wasanaethau a ddarperir mor agos â phosibl at gartrefi’r cleifion, ac sy’n ddiogel yn glinigol, gan ddefnyddio rhwydwaith o ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, ysbytai cymunedol a chanolfannau rhagoriaeth.

Believes that patients are best served by services provided as close to patients’ homes as possible, and which are clinically safe, utilising a network of district general hospitals, community hospitals and centres of excellence.

Kirsty Williams: I move amendment 3 in the name of Peter Black.

Kirsty Williams: Cynigiaf welliant 3 yn enw Peter Black.

We believe that any debate about the future of hospital services in Wales cannot simply be about one section of that service. District general hospitals do not exist alone. They work, as acute services should work, as part of a network of other health and social care providers. In addition, it does not reflect patients’ experiences. Patients’ experiences of the NHS do not revolve around the DGH. Sometimes, as it should be, they are part of a clinical journey and pathway that has been identified for that patient. Sometimes, patients end up in DGHs because of the failure of another part of the NHS. The reason behind our amendment 3 is that we think that there should be a holistic debate about clinical pathways and services for patients in Wales. We cannot pick off a single service or sub-service, as the Tories do in their amendments—although I understand Darren’s reasoning, I do not think that you can do that. We need to have a discussion in the round.

Credwn na all unrhyw ddadl ynglŷn â dyfodol gwasanaethau ysbyty yng Nghymru fod ynghylch un rhan o’r gwasanaeth hwnnw yn unig. Ni all ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth fodoli ar eu pen eu hunain. Maent yn gweithio, fel y dylai gwasanaethau acíwt weithio, fel rhan o rwydwaith o ddarparwyr gofal iechyd a chymdeithasol eraill. Yn ogystal, nid yw’n adlewyrchu profiadau cleifion. Nid yw profiadau cleifion y gwasanaeth iechyd yn troi o gwmpas yr ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth. Weithiau, fel y dylai fod, maent yn rhan o daith glinigol a llwybr sydd wedi’i nodi ar gyfer y claf hwnnw. Weithiau, mae cleifion yn cyrraedd ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, yn y pen draw, oherwydd methiant rhan arall o’r gwasanaeth iechyd. Y rheswm dros ein gwelliant 3 yw ein bod yn credu y dylid cael dadl gyfannol am lwybrau clinigol a gwasanaethau i gleifion yng Nghymru. Ni allwn ddethol un gwasanaeth neu is-wasanaeth, fel y gwna’r Torïaid yn eu gwelliannau—er y deallaf resymu Darren, ni chredaf y gallwch wneud hynny. Mae angen inni gael trafodaeth.

Darren Millar: It is impossible to list all the ingredients of a district general hospital. We simply sought to highlight some of the more important parts in our amendments, which is why they were tabled in that way. I hope that you will find it in your wonderful liberal heart to support them. [Laughter.]

Darren Millar: Mae’n amhosibl rhestru holl gynhwysion ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth. Ceisiasom amlygu rhai o’r rhannau mwy pwysig yn ein gwelliannau, a dyna pam y cawsant eu cyflwyno yn y ffordd honno. Gobeithiaf bod gennych le yn eich calon ryddfrydol wych i’w cefnogi. [Chwerthin.]

Kirsty Williams: As you quite rightly said, Darren, it is impossible to list all the elements of a district general hospital. In fact, a district general hospital should reflect its district and, therefore, some district general hospitals will have different elements and different focuses to others. It is therefore impossible to list all of the ingredients. Since the invention of district general hospitals by Enoch Powell in his paper on hospital services in 1962, we have seen a huge change in the roles, responsibilities and services of those hospitals. At the moment there are two critical pressures facing district general hospital services: changes in medical practice, and issues to do with staffing.

Kirsty Williams: Fel y dywedasoch yn gwbl gywir, Darren, mae’n amhosibl rhestru holl elfennau ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth. Mewn gwirionedd, dylai ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth adlewyrchu ei dosbarth ac, felly, bydd gan rai ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth elfennau a chanolbwyntiau gwahanol i eraill. Felly, mae’n amhosibl rhestru’r holl gynhwysion. Ers i Enoch Powell ddyfeisio ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn ei bapur ar wasanaethau ysbyty ym 1962, yr ydym wedi gweld newid mawr yn y rolau, cyfrifoldebau a gwasanaethau o’r ysbytai hynny. Ar hyn o bryd mae yna ddau fath o bwysau critigol yn wynebu gwasanaethau ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth: newidiadau mewn ymarfer meddygol, a materion yn ymwneud â staffio.

I will address staffing first. Since the implementation of the working time directive, and the huge change in how we treat junior doctors in our hospitals, staffing arrangements have become difficult for district general hospitals. Simply filling a rota has become, in some cases, very difficult. This has not been made easier by a significant number of clinical vacancies within our hospitals and the difficulty in recruiting and retaining hospital doctors in some of our more isolated communities, especially in the west of Wales and in the north-west. I urge the Government to look at this. We will be forced into change if we do not get our human resources right, and if we do not do something about filling those vacancies.

Fe wnaf ymdrin â staffio yn gyntaf. Ers gweithredu’r gyfarwyddeb oriau gwaith, a’r newid enfawr o ran sut yr ydym yn trin meddygon iau yn ein hysbytai, mae trefniadau staffio wedi dod yn anodd ar gyfer ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Mae dim ond llenwi rota, mewn rhai achosion, wedi mynd yn anodd iawn. Ni wnaed hyn yn haws gan y nifer sylweddol o swyddi clinigol gwag o fewn ein hysbytai a’r anhawster o ran recriwtio a chadw meddygon ysbyty mewn rhai o’n cymunedau mwy anghysbell, yn enwedig yng ngorllewin Cymru ac yn y gogledd-orllewin. Rwy’n erfyn ar y Llywodraeth i edrych ar hyn. Cawn ein gorfodi i newid os na chawn ein hadnoddau dynol yn iawn, ac os na wnawn rywbeth ynghylch llenwi’r swyddi gwag hynny.

David Rees: I agree that we have a difficulty with shortages of staff, particularly of experienced doctors. However, do you not agree that the UK Government has not helped by introducing border controls and limiting the immigration of doctors with expertise?

David Rees: Cytunaf fod gennym anhawster â phrinder staff, yn enwedig meddygon profiadol. Fodd bynnag, a ydych yn cytuno nad yw Llywodraeth y DU wedi helpu wrth gyflwyno rheolaethau ffin a chyfyngu ar fewnfudo meddygon ag arbenigedd?

Kirsty Williams: That is a bit rich, having listened to what Ed Miliband said about immigration at the Labour Party conference this week. The issue is that there is more that this Government could do to recruit and retain staff who are trained in Wales, in our excellent medical schools, but who then leave Wales and practice elsewhere. We should be doing something about that.

Kirsty Williams: Mae hynny’n eironig, ar ôl gwrando ar yr hyn a ddywedodd Ed Miliband ynghylch mewnfudo yng nghynhadledd y Blaid Lafur yr wythnos hon. Y peth yw bod mwy y gallai’r Llywodraeth hon ei wneud i recriwtio a chadw staff sydd wedi’u hyfforddi yng Nghymru, yn ein hysgolion meddygol ardderchog, ond sydd wedyn yn gadael Cymru i ymarfer mewn mannau eraill. Dylem wneud rhywbeth ynghylch hynny.

Simon Thomas rose—

Simon Thomas a gododd—

Kirsty Williams: I have taken two interventions already, Simon.

Kirsty Williams: Yr wyf wedi derbyn dau ymyriad eisoes, Simon.

The reality is that, if the Government wants to retain those services in those hospitals, it will have to pay for the staffing ratios that can support that. That is a political choice that everybody in this room will have to make. That is the answer: you just have to pay for those consultant-led staffing levels. However, clinical governance issues sometimes dictate a change in medical practice, and that is a difficult decision if you are faced with overwhelming evidence from the royal colleges and the medical profession that patient outcomes are improved by gathering together services, because throughput is necessary to maintain clinical skills and clinical governance. Those are difficult issues to address.

Y realiti yw, os yw’r Llywodraeth am gadw’r gwasanaethau hynny yn yr ysbytai hynny, bydd yn rhaid iddi dalu am y cymarebau staffio a all gefnogi hynny. Mae hynny’n ddewis gwleidyddol y bydd yn rhaid i bawb yn yr ystafell hon ei wneud. Dyna’r ateb: mae’n rhaid i chi dalu am y lefelau hynny o staffio dan arweiniad ymgynghorydd. Fodd bynnag, weithiau mae materion llywodraethu clinigol yn mynnu newid mewn ymarfer meddygol, ac mae hwnnw’n benderfyniad anodd os ydych yn wynebu tystiolaeth lethol gan y colegau brenhinol a’r proffesiwn meddygol fod canlyniadau i gleifion yn cael eu gwella drwy gasglu ynghyd gwasanaethau, oherwydd bod trwygyrch yn angenrheidiol i gynnal sgiliau clinigol a llywodraethu clinigol. Mae’r rhain yn faterion anodd i fynd i’r afael â hwy.

However, relocation should not be the first port of call. We have already heard about clinical networking, which can address some of these clinical governance issues, as can new information technology, and peripatetic services. Those should be the first options that we look at, rather than centralisation and relocation.

Fodd bynnag, nid adleoli ddylai fod y pwynt cyswllt cyntaf. Yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed am rwydweithio clinigol y gall ymdrin â rhai o’r materion llywodraethu clinigol hyn, fel y gall technoleg gwybodaeth newydd, a gwasanaethau teithiol. Y rheiny ddylai fod y dewisiadau cyntaf inni edrych arnynt, yn hytrach na chanoli ac adleoli.

There may be some cases where we cannot maintain services in district general hospitals. Nor would we always want to—my constituents do not want to travel to a district general hospital to have chemotherapy. They would like to have those services in their community hospitals. They do not want to travel to the district general hospital to get their renal dialysis. They want it delivered within their community hospital. Why not? Clinical governance suggests that it is perfectly safe and proper to do so. We cannot preserve all services in aspic, because there is downwards pressure to do more in the community, as well as pressure in clinical governance to do more in specialised centres.

Efallai y bydd rhai achosion lle na ellir cynnal gwasanaethau mewn ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Ac ni fyddem bob amser yn awyddus i wneud hynny—nid yw fy etholwyr am deithio i ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth i gael cemotherapi. Byddent yn hoffi cael y gwasanaethau hynny yn eu hysbytai cymunedol. Nid ydynt am deithio i ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth i gael eu dialysis arennol. Maent am iddo gael ei ddarparu o fewn eu hysbyty cymunedol. Pam lai? Mae llywodraethu clinigol yn awgrymu ei bod yn berffaith ddiogel a phriodol i wneud hynny. Ni allwn gadw pob gwasanaeth mewn asbig, oherwydd ceir pwysau tuag i lawr i wneud mwy yn y gymuned, yn ogystal â phwysau mewn llywodraethu clinigol i wneud mwy mewn canolfannau arbenigol.

We have to be open and transparent with communities about this, because when they are given the right information, they will vote for change—if it can be demonstrated that they are getting something overwhelmingly better than they have at that moment. [Interruption.] Do not lecture me, Simon—I bear the scars. I do not remember any Plaid Cymru representative being around when we discussed maternity services or cardiac services at Brecon War Memorial Hospital. Where people are given information, they will vote for change, and for a better service, and that is what we are trying to achieve in Builth Wells at the moment—a better service for local people. The Minister could not avoid political accountability.

Rhaid inni fod yn agored a thryloyw â chymunedau ynglŷn â hyn, oherwydd pan fyddant yn cael y wybodaeth gywir, byddant yn pleidleisio ar gyfer newid—os gellir dangos y byddant yn cael rhywbeth gwell o lawer nag sydd ganddynt ar y pryd. [Torri ar draws.] Peidiwch â phregethu imi, Simon—mae gennyf i’r creithiau. Nid wyf yn cofio unrhyw gynrychiolydd Plaid Cymru o gwmpas pan drafodasom wasanaethau mamolaeth neu wasanaethau cardiaidd yn Ysbyty Coffa Rhyfel Sir Frycheiniog. Lle rhoddir gwybodaeth i bobl, byddant yn pleidleisio ar gyfer newid, ac am well gwasanaeth, a dyna beth yr ydym yn ceisio ei gyflawni yn Llanfair-ym-Muallt ar hyn o bryd—gwell gwasanaeth i bobl leol. Ni allai’r Gweinidog osgoi atebolrwydd gwleidyddol.

Peter Black: Kirsty, you have run out of time. I will have to stop you. Sorry. Could you sit down, please; you have run out of time.

Peter Black: Kirsty, rydych wedi rhedeg allan o amser. Bydd yn rhaid imi eich atal. Mae’n flin gennyf. A allwch chi eistedd i lawr, os gwelwch yn dda? Mae’ch amser wedi dod i ben.

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: Hoffwn dynnu sylw Aelodau at y datganiad a gafodd ei wneud ym maniffesto Llafur ar gyfer yr etholiad ym mis Mai. Dywedodd ei bod am

Llyr Huws Gruffydd: I would like to draw Members’ attention to the statement made in Labour’s manifesto for the election in May. It said that it wanted to

‘sicrhau bod gan bobl ar draws Cymru fynediad i wasanaethau iechyd o ansawdd uchel mor agos â phosibl i’r lle y maent yn byw.’

‘ensure that people across Wales have access to high quality health services as close as possible to where they live.’

Yr wyf hefyd am dynnu sylw Aelodau at y datganiad a ymddangosodd yn rhaglen lywodraethu’r Llywodraeth Lafur a gyhoeddwyd ddoe, sef ei bod am geisio

I also want to draw Members’ attention to the statement that appeared in the Labour Government’s programme for government, published yesterday, that it wanted to

‘sicrhau bod gwasanaethau iechyd lleol yn cael eu darparu mor agos â phosib i gartrefi pobl, tra’n cydnabod y bydd rhai gwasanaethau arbenigol yn cael eu lleoli yn bellach i ffwrdd’.

‘look to ensure that local health services are provided as close to people’s homes as possible, while acknowledging some specialist services will be located further afield’.

Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai ambell un mwy sinigaidd na mi yn awgrymu bod newid safbwynt yma a bod hynny’n glir yn braenaru’r tir ar gyfer canoli gwasanaethau oddi wrth rai o’n hysbytai cyffredinol.

I am sure that those of a more cynical disposition than me would suggest a change of emphasis here, clearly paving the way to centralising services away from some of our general hospitals.

Yn y gogledd, mae’r bwriad i ganoli ac israddio gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn mynd at wraidd y ddadl hon. Mae gwrthwynebiad wedi dod o bob cwr—gan feddygon, nyrsys, bydwragedd ac, yn bwysicach, o gyfeiriad mamau a theuluoedd. Mae’n syndod i mi fod y fath don o wrthwynebiad wedi methu â chyrraedd drysau’r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, a oedd mor daer ei chefnogaeth i wasanaethau mamolaeth Wrecsam cyn dod yn Weinidog. Yn wir, ar ôl cyfarfod â’r Gweinidog iechyd ar y pryd yn yr hydref y llynedd i ddadlau yn erbyn canoli gwasanaethau plant, bu i Lesley Griffiths gydnabod ei bod yn rhannu gofidiau ei hetholwyr—rhywbeth y bu iddi ei ailadrodd ar ddiwrnod ei hethol ym mis Mai.

In north Wales, the intention to centralise and downgrade maternity services goes to the heart of this debate. There is opposition from all directions—doctors, nurses, midwives and, more importantly, mothers and families are all opposed. It surprises me that such a wave of opposition has failed to reach the door of the Minister for Health and Social Services, who was so vocal in her support for Wrexham’s maternity services before becoming Minister. Indeed, following a meeting with the then Minister for health last autumn to argue the case against centralising children’s services, Lesley Griffiths conceded that she shared her constituents’ concerns—something that she repeated on the day of her election in May.

Gallai canoli olygu staff profiadol yn gorfod symud a channoedd o famau yn cael eu gorfodi i fynd i ysbytai 40 milltir i lawr yr A55 er mwyn geni plentyn. Yn ôl arbenigwyr, gallai hynny effeithio ar hyd at bedair o bob 10 genedigaeth. Mae doctoriaid, drwy Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, wedi bod yn frawychus o onest yn eu barn broffesiynol, drwy ddweud y gallai canoli gwasanaethau achosi hyd at 10 marwolaeth ychwanegol y flwyddyn, a hynny, wrth gwrs, yng nghyd-destun gwasanaethau mamolaeth yn unig.

Centralisation could lead to experienced staff having to move and to hundreds of mothers being forced to travel to a hospital 40 miles down the A55 in order to give birth. According to specialists, that could have an effect on up to one in 10 births. Doctors, through the British Medical Association, have been graphically honest in their professional opinion, saying that centralising services could cause up to 10 additional deaths per annum—that is, of course, in the context of maternity services alone.

Model dinesig yw’r cynlluniau canoli nad yw’n addas ar gyfer rhanbarth mor wledig ac amrywiol â’r gogledd. Nid yw’n rhy hwyr i’r Llywodraeth hon dynnu yn ôl o’r ffwlbri hwn. Yn wir, cafwyd tro pedol yn 2007 oherwydd pwysau gan y cyhoedd, ac mae angen tro pedol arall yn awr.

The centralisation plans are based on an urban model that is not suitable for a region as rural and diverse as north Wales. It is not too late for the Government to change these foolish plans. Indeed, there was a u-turn in 2007 as a result of public pressure, and we need another u-turn now.

Jenny Rathbone: I agree with amendment 3 that patients are best served by services provided as close to patients’ homes as possible. However, we must recognise that that may not be in a district general hospital. Indeed, there are all manner of services that are best delivered in the community. Sticking with the status quo, and regarding district hospitals as the holy grail, never to be changed, which seems to be the opinion of some people, may be neither clinically safe nor in line with the best clinical practice.

Jenny Rathbone: Cytunaf â gwelliant 3 bod cleifion yn cael eu gwasanaethu’n well gan wasanaethau a ddarperir mor agos at gartrefi cleifion â phosibl. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gydnabod efallai na fyddai hynny mewn ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth. Yn wir, ceir pob math o wasanaethau y mae’n well eu darparu yn y gymuned. Efallai nad yw cadw at y status quo a gweld ysbytai dosbarth fel greal sanctaidd, byth i gael eu newid—ac ymddengys mai hon yw barn rhai pobl—yn ddiogel yn glinigol nac yn unol ag ymarfer clinigol gorau.

When my son went over his handlebars near the Brenig reservoir in Hiraethog, a GP in Denbigh, a mere 7 miles away, did an excellent job of stitching up his head. I did not have to take him to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, but if he had broken his arm, no doubt he would have needed an x-ray and I would then have had to go much further to Glan Clwyd, which is entirely appropriate. The procedures on this sort of everyday occurrence are relatively straightforward.

Pan aeth fy mab dros gyrn ei feic ger cronfa ddŵr y Brenig yn Hiraethog, gwnaeth meddyg teulu yn Ninbych, dim ond 7 milltir i ffwrdd, waith rhagorol o roi pwythau yn ei ben. Nid oedd yn rhaid imi fynd ag ef i Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, ond petai wedi torri ei fraich, nid oes amheuaeth y byddai wedi angen pelydr-x ac wedyn byddwn wedi gorfod mynd llawer ymhellach i Glan Clwyd, sydd yn gwbl briodol. Mae’r gweithdrefnau ar y math hwn o ddigwyddiad bob dydd yn gymharol syml.

Darren Millar: The Brenig is a wonderful place in my constituency. What would have happened if that GP was not available or if the surgery was closed? Where would you have taken your son then? You must have these emergency services available at every single district general hospital. You cannot do without them.

Darren Millar: Mae’r Brenig yn le rhyfeddol yn fy etholaeth. Beth fyddai wedi digwydd pe na bai’r meddyg teulu hwnnw ar gael neu pe bai’r feddygfa ar gau? I le y byddech wedi mynd â’ch mab wedyn? Mae’n rhaid bod gennych y gwasanaethau brys hyn ar gael ym mhob un ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth. Ni allwch wneud hebddynt.

Jenny Rathbone: Thank you; you have made your point. My answer to you is what is called out of hours cover. If that GP had not been available, then another GP would have been available to do that sort of minor surgery. [Interruption.] Let me continue. I think that those are relatively straightforward occurrences and there are relatively straightforward guidelines for them. I ask this question: how well equipped is a district general hospital to diagnose and treat a child with an acute respiratory infection with fever? As a parent, my question would always be: is a consultant paediatrician available 24 hours a day, and is that ever going to be available in a district hospital? If not, how well equipped is that hospital to decide whether that child needs transferring to a specialist unit? I do not know the answer to that, but these are the sorts of difficult issues that local health boards have to grapple with. The national clinical audit forum is a lot better placed to provide the answers than a bunch of politicians.

Jenny Rathbone: Diolch i chi; rydych wedi gwneud eich pwynt. Fy ateb i chi yw’r hyn a elwir yn wasanaeth y tu allan i oriau. Os na fu’r meddyg teulu hwnnw ar gael, yna byddai meddyg teulu arall wedi bod ar gael i wneud y math hwnnw o fân lawdriniaethau. [Torri ar draws.] Gadewch imi barhau. Credaf fod y rheiny’n ddigwyddiadau gymharol syml ac mae yna ganllawiau gymharol syml iddynt. Gofynnaf y cwestiwn hwn: pa mor dda y mae’r cyfarpar mewn ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth i wneud diagnosis a thrin plentyn â haint anadlol acíwt â thwymyn? Fel rhiant, fy nghwestiwn i bob amser fyddai: a oes pediatrydd ymgynghorol ar gael 24 awr y dydd, ac a yw hynny byth yn mynd i fod ar gael mewn ysbyty dosbarth? Os na, pa mor dda yw cyfarpar yr ysbyty hwnnw i benderfynu a oes angen trosglwyddo’r plentyn hwnnw i uned arbenigol? Nid wyf yn gwybod yr ateb i hynny, ond dyma’r mathau o faterion anodd y mae byrddau iechyd lleol yn gorfod mynd i’r afael â hwy. Mae’r fforwm archwiliad clinigol cenedlaethol mewn sefyllfa well o lawer i ddarparu’r atebion na chriw o wleidyddion.

4.30 p.m.

Leanne Wood: I am sure that most people in this room have received representations from their constituents about the future of health services in their constituencies and regions and, in particular, concerns about the future of district general hospitals. I recently addressed a meeting of the upper Rhondda older people’s forum where the Cwm Taf Local Health Board’s proposals were discussed. Various concerns were raised about the implications that the merger of the two district general hospitals, in Rhondda and Merthyr, would have on services, and the difficulties that people would face when trying to travel between them. Anyone who knows the area will know that public transport links are not great and, during bad weather, roads are often closed. Therefore, these issues raise serious concerns. Staff from the health authority were present at the meeting and they were able to provide assurances to people about the future of accident and emergency services, for example. The maintenance of the two accident and emergency departments on both sites is something that people feel very strongly about, because of those travelling difficulties.

Leanne Wood: Mae’n siŵr gennyf bod y rhan fwyaf o’r bobl yn yr ystafell hon wedi cael sylwadau gan eu hetholwyr am ddyfodol gwasanaethau iechyd yn eu hetholaethau a rhanbarthau ac, yn benodol, pryderon am ddyfodol ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Yn ddiweddar, anerchais gyfarfod o fforwm pobl hŷn Rhondda uchaf, lle y trafodwyd cynigion Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Cwm Taf. Codwyd amryw o bryderon am y goblygiadau o uno’r ddau ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth yn Rhondda a Merthyr ar wasanaethau a’r anawsterau y byddai pobl yn eu hwynebu wrth geisio teithio rhyngddynt. Bydd unrhyw un sy’n adnabod yr ardal yn gwybod nad yw’r cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus yn wych ac, yn ystod tywydd gwael, mae’r ffyrdd ar gau yn aml. Felly, mae’r materion hyn yn codi pryderon difrifol. Roedd staff yr awdurdod iechyd yn bresennol yn y cyfarfod ac roeddent yn gallu rhoi sicrwydd i bobl am ddyfodol gwasanaethau damweiniau ac achosion brys, er enghraifft. Mae cynnal a chadw’r ddwy adran damweiniau ac achosion brys ar y ddau safle yn rhywbeth y mae pobl yn teimlo’n gryf iawn amdano, oherwydd yr anawsterau teithio hynny.

I am also aware—others have also raised the issue—of the difficulties in recruiting appropriate clinicians to run these accident and emergency departments. That has had an impact on other services. For example, the minor injuries unit at the new Ysbyty Cwm Rhondda in Llwynypia is seeing a downgrade in services and staff are being transferred to the accident and emergency department at the local district general hospital; the same has happened in Aberdare. There have been efforts to recruit staff, and those efforts are to be welcomed, but if the minor injuries unit opening hours are to be reduced in order to redeploy staff to ensure the safety of the two accident and emergency departments, you can understand why people are concerned about downgrading. People believe that these two minor injuries units are being run down and that they will eventually be done away with. This is despite numerous assurances over the years that there are no plans to close these minor injuries units. Given the fact that the opening times are to be reduced, people are seeing this as a downgrading of services. Therefore, Minister, you really have to be upfront with people. If there are plans, health boards have to be open with people about them.

Rwyf hefyd yn ymwybodol—ac y mae eraill wedi codi’r mater—o’r anawsterau wrth recriwtio clinigwyr priodol i redeg yr adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys hyn. Mae hynny wedi cael effaith ar wasanaethau eraill. Er enghraifft, mae gwasanaethau’r uned mân anafiadau yn Ysbyty newydd Cwm Rhondda yn Llwynypia yn cael eu hisraddio ac y mae staff yn cael eu trosglwyddo i’r adran damweiniau ac achosion brys yn yr ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth lleol; mae’r un peth wedi digwydd yn Aberdâr. Bu ymdrechion i recriwtio staff, ac y mae’r ymdrechion hynny i’w croesawu, ond os yw oriau agor yr uned mân anafiadau yn cael eu lleihau er mwyn adleoli staff er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch y ddwy adran damweiniau ac achosion brys, gallwch ddeall pam y mae pobl yn pryderu am israddio. Mae pobl yn credu bod y ddwy uned mân anafiadau yn cael eu rhedeg i lawr ac y byddant yn y pen draw yn cael eu diddymu. Mae hyn er gwaethaf sicrwydd droeon dros y blynyddoedd nad oes unrhyw gynlluniau i gau’r unedau mân anafiadau hyn. O ystyried y ffaith bod yr amseroedd agor yn cael eu lleihau, mae pobl yn gweld hyn fel israddio gwasanaethau. Felly, Weinidog, mewn gwirionedd, mae’n rhaid i chi fod yn agored gyda phobl. Os oes cynlluniau, mae’n rhaid i fyrddau iechyd fod yn agored gyda phobl yn eu cylch.

There was much denial in the recent election about health; we all have been there before. However, if you keep telling people that their service is not under threat and then its operating hours are reduced, how on earth do you expect people to believe all your other assurances? Minister, people are not daft. They understand that cuts are coming, but they feel strongly that those cuts should not be in vital front-line services. Assurances that this Government will stand up for people in Wales against the cuts and that the worst-off in society will not be forced to pay for the mistakes of the bankers do not amount to a hill of beans if there is further centralisation and downgrading of local services. We accept that cuts will have to be made, but people should be fully informed and fully consulted about where the axe falls in a meaningful way. They should not have any service reductions or centralisation imposed them.

Yr oedd llawer o wrthod yn yr etholiad diweddar am iechyd; yr ydym i gyd wedi bod yno o’r blaen. Fodd bynnag, os ydych yn cadw dweud wrth bobl nad yw eu gwasanaeth dan fygythiad ac yna mae ei oriau gweithredu yn cael eu lleihau, sut ar y ddaear ydych chi’n disgwyl pobl i gredu eich holl addewidion eraill? Weinidog, nid yw pobl yn dwp. Maent yn deall bod toriadau yn dod, ond maent yn teimlo’n gryf na ddylai’r toriadau hynny fod mewn gwasanaethau rheng flaen hanfodol. Mae’r sicrwydd y bydd y Llywodraeth hon yn sefyll dros bobl yng Nghymru yn erbyn y toriadau ac na fydd y tlotaf mewn cymdeithas yn cael eu gorfodi i dalu am gamgymeriadau’r bancwyr cystal â dim os oes canoli pellach ac israddio gwasanaethau lleol. Rydym yn derbyn y bydd yn rhaid gwneud toriadau, ond dylai pobl gael yr holl wybodaeth a dylid ymgynghori’n llawn ynghylch ble y bydd y fwyell yn disgyn mewn ffordd ystyrlon. Ni ddylid gorfodi unrhyw ostyngiadau o ran gwasanaeth neu ganoli arnynt.

Paul Davies: Yr wyf yn falch o gael y cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y drafodaeth hon y prynhawn yma. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Blaid Cymru am gyflwyno’r cynnig pwysig hwn, oherwydd y mae’r mater hwn yn bwysig i fy etholaeth i. Hoffwn ganolbwyntio’n benodol heddiw ar y gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud gan Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llwynhelyg yn Hwlffordd a phwysigrwydd gwasanaethau yn yr ysbyty hwn i’r cymunedau cyfagos. Bydd y Siambr yn ymwybodol fy mod wedi cyflwyno sawl dadl fer ar wasanaethau iechyd yn sir Benfro, oherwydd pwysigrwydd ysbyty Llwynhelyg i bobl sir Benfro.

Paul Davies: I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate this afternoon. I am grateful to Plaid Cymru for tabling this important motion because it is an important issue in my constituency. I would like to focus today on the work that is being done by Withybush General Hospital in Haverfordwest and the importance of services at that hospital to local communities. The Chamber will be aware that I have introduced several short debates on health services in Pembrokeshire, due to the importance of Withybush hospital to the people of Pembrokeshire.

Yr wyf yn cydnabod bod y gwasanaeth iechyd yn wynebu setliadau ariannol tyn, ond mae’n hanfodol, mewn cyfnod economaidd anodd, fod pobl yn cael mynediad hawdd i wasanaethau iechyd ac i’r driniaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt yn lleol.

I acknowledge that the health service is facing tight financial settlements, but it is essential, in difficult economic times, that people have easy access to health services and the treatment that they need locally.

Atgoffaf Aelodau fod rhai ardaloedd yn fy etholaeth sydd nid yn unig yn gyfyngedig o ran eu natur wledig ond sydd hefyd wedi’u clustnodi yn ardaloedd o amddifadedd. Felly, mae’n bwysicach nag erioed sicrhau bod eu gwasanaethau iechyd lleol yn cael eu diogelu. Yn wir, wrth adolygu gwasanaethau, rhaid ystyried daearyddiaeth yr ardal.

I remind Members that there are areas of my constituency that are constrained not only by their rural nature, but by the fact that they are earmarked as areas of deprivation. Therefore, it is more important than ever to ensure that their local health services are safeguarded. Indeed, in reviewing services, the geography of the area must be considered.

Yr wyf yn derbyn bod darparu gwasanaethau iechyd mewn ardal wledig yn heriol, o gofio bod pobl eisoes yn teithio pellter i’w hysbytai lleol. Yr wyf hefyd yn derbyn, fel y dywedodd yr Aelod dros Geredigion, fod angen teithio i gael rhai gwasanaethau, fel yr ydym yn gwneud yn awr. Fodd bynnag, yn fy ardal i, yr ydym wedi gweld gwasanaethau yn diflannu o ysbyty Llwynhelyg—mae gwasanaethau orthodonteg a histopatholeg eisoes wedi cael eu trosglwyddo o sir Benfro i Abertawe a Chaerfyrddin.

I accept that providing health services in a rural area is challenging, bearing in mind that people already travel considerable distances to their local hospitals. I also accept, as the Member for Ceredigion said, that there will always be a need to travel for some services, as we do currently. However, in my area, we have seen services disappear from Withybush hospital—orthodontics and histopathology have already been transferred from Pembrokeshire to Swansea and Carmarthen.

Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod i gyd yn ymwybodol o ddogfen a ryddhawyd y llynedd, sef ‘Strategaeth Gwasanaethau Iechyd: Cynllun Gwario i Arbed’, a luniwyd gan Fwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda ac sy’n amlwg yn sôn am ganoli gwasanaethau i ffwrdd o ysbyty Llwynhelyg. Yr wyf yn derbyn bod y ddogfen wedi cael ei thynnu’n ôl, ond nid yw pethau fel hyn yn magu hyder pobl leol, yn enwedig o ystyried yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd yn y gorffennol. Mae’n debyg iawn i’r ddogfen ynghylch cyflenwi gwasanaethau acíwt yn ysbytai canolbarth a gorllewin Cymru, a gafodd ei llunio ryw bum mlynedd yn ôl ac a wrthodwyd gan fwyafrif llethol pobl sir Benfro. Mae’n amlwg bod pobl sir Benfro yn credu bod ysbyty Llwynhelyg, fel ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth, yn hanfodol i’w lles. Gwn fod ein bwrdd iechyd lleol yn adolygu ei wasanaethau ysbyty, ac mae’n hanfodol bod unrhyw gynigion newydd yn y gwasanaeth iechyd yn dryloyw a’i fod yn atebol i’r bobl y mae’n eu gwasanaethu. Yn sicr, rhaid i unrhyw newidiadau i wasanaethau yn ysbyty Llwynhelyg ac mewn ysbytai eraill fod yn destun ymgynghori—nid yn unig gyda rhanddeiliaid allweddol ond gyda’r boblogaeth gyffredinol yn sir Benfro ac mewn ardaloedd eraill. Rhaid i bobl a chymunedau fod yn rhan o unrhyw broses ymgynghori, gan y byddai cynnal ymgynghoriadau cyfyngedig gyda rhanddeiliaid allweddol yn unig yn annerbyniol.

I am sure that you are all aware of the document that was released last year by the Hywel Dda Local Health Board, the ‘Rural Health Services Strategy: Spend To Save Plan’, that clearly mentions centralising services away from Withybush hospital. I accept that that document has been withdrawn, but such incidents do not engender confidence in local people, especially considering what has happened in the past. It is very similar to the document on the provision of acute services in the hospitals of mid and west Wales that was drawn up some five years ago and that was rejected by the vast majority of the people of Pembrokeshire. It is obvious that the people of Pembrokeshire believe that Withybush hospital, as a district general hospital, is essential to their wellbeing. I know that our local health board is reviewing its hospital services and it is essential that any new proposals for the health service are transparent and that it is accountable to the people that it serves. Certainly, any changes to services at Withybush hospital and in other hospitals need to be consulted on—not only with key stakeholders, but with the general population of Pembrokeshire and other areas. All people and communities should be part of any consultation process because it would be unacceptable to conduct restricted consultations with key stakeholders only.

Yr ydym yn clywed llawer am ddarparu mwy o wasanaethau iechyd yn ein cymunedau ac yn nes at gartrefi pobl. Mae hyn yn golygu darparu mwy o’n gwasanaethau iechyd drwy’r sector gofal sylfaenol, a chytunaf fod hyn yn ddyhead canmoladwy. Fodd bynnag, mae angen buddsoddi yn y gwasanaethau hynny cyn inni gael trafodaeth synhwyrol a rhesymegol am y gwasanaethau sy’n cael eu darparu yn ein hysbytai. Yr wyf yn derbyn yn llawn fod byrddau iechyd lleol yn gyfrifol am redeg ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth o ddydd i ddydd, ond ni ddylem anghofio bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn gyfrifol am y polisïau cyffredinol sy’n llywio’r gwasanaethau hyn. Mae’n hynod bwysig bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi barn eglur ar ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth ac yr wyf yn mawr obeithio na fydd y Llywodraeth yn defnyddio’r fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol fel offeryn i ryddhau ei hun o’i chyfrifoldebau. Ni ddylai hyn fod yn esgus i’r Llywodraeth drosglwyddo ei chyfrifoldeb dros bolisi i’r corff newydd hwn. Rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio bod Llywodraethau’n cael eu hethol gan bobl a’u bod yn atebol i bobl am eu penderfyniadau. Yr wyf yn gobeithio’n fawr y bydd y ddadl hon yn arwain y Llywodraeth i wneud y penderfyniadau cywir ynghylch dyfodol ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth.

We hear a lot about the provision of more health services in our communities and nearer to people’s homes. That means providing more of our health services through the primary care sector and I agree that that is a laudable aim. However, we need to invest in those services before having a sensible and logical discussion on the services that are provided in our hospitals. I fully accept that local health boards are responsible for running district general hospitals from day to day, but we should not forget that the Welsh Government is responsible for the general policies that steer these services. It is of crucial importance that the Welsh Government gives a clear view on district general hospitals and I very much hope that the Government will not use the national clinical forum as a way of escaping its responsibilities. This should not be an excuse for the Government to transfer its responsibility for policy to this new body. We should not forget that Governments are elected by people and that they are accountable to people for those decisions. I very much hope that this debate will lead the Government to make the right decisions in relation to the future of district general hospitals.

Simon Thomas: I am glad to follow Paul Davies, as I agreed with almost everything that he said—that is not something that you will hear me say often in the Chamber. I will start by focusing on the rural health plan. Before the summer recess, the Minister said in response to a question from me that the rural health plan was still in force and that it is still the active policy of this Government for health in rural areas. I am pleased to hear that. In addressing the issue before us today, I will quote from the rural health plan. It states:

Simon Thomas: Yr wyf yn falch o ddilyn Paul Davies, gan fy mod yn cytuno gyda bron popeth a ddywedodd—nid yw hynny’n rhywbeth y byddwch yn fy nghlywed yn dweud yn aml yn y Siambr. Dechreuaf drwy ganolbwyntio ar y cynllun iechyd gwledig. Cyn toriad yr haf, dywedodd y Gweinidog mewn ymateb i gwestiwn oddi wrthyf fod y cynllun iechyd gwledig yn dal mewn grym a’i fod yn dal i fod yn bolisi gweithredol i’r Llywodraeth hon ar gyfer iechyd mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Yr wyf yn falch o glywed hynny. Wrth fynd i’r afael â’r mater ger ein bron heddiw, dyfynnaf o’r cynllun iechyd gwledig. Mae’n datgan:

‘The richness of the current network of major hospital sites across rural Wales is a significant asset and there should be a presumption toward local provision in the mind of planners and decision makers in designing the service models of the future.’

‘Mae cyfoeth y rhwydwaith presennol o ysbytai mawr ledled Cymru wledig yn ased sylweddol a dylai’r rhai sy’n cynllunio ac yn penderfynu ynghylch modelau gwasanaeth y dyfodol ragdybio o blaid darparu’n lleol.’

I agree with that, as does the Government, as it says the plan is still in force. Now we need to see it carried out on the ground. Members who were here in the previous Assembly will know that we have been here before, as Paul Davies mentioned. The plans in 2006, for example in mid and west Wales, were to change from having district general hospitals to having rural general hospitals, and there were no absolute assurances at all about the kinds of services that might be available there. We now have a different type of Government and a different type of Minister, who will look carefully at these issues. The previous Government invested £140 million in services at Bronglais General Hospital, Prince Philip Hospital, Glangwili General Hospital and Withybush General Hospital, and I thank the Government for doing that. However, that will be wasted if we turn our backs and get rid of the core services that people expect to be delivered in their local communities. It is incumbent upon this Government to take a much more controlling influence—again, you will not hear me saying that often—because this matter needs to be driven from the top, as it is a nationally delivered health service. As Elin Jones pointed out, local accountability has, in effect, been taken away from local health boards. They are planning boards, which, rightly, involve clinicians and managers, and which, rightly, have the responsibility for spending money wisely. However, we also need a national health service that delivers in all parts of Wales, including, importantly, in our rural areas.

Yr wyf yn cytuno â hynny, fel y mae’r Llywodraeth, gan ei fod yn dweud bod y cynllun yn dal i fod mewn grym. Nawr mae angen ei weld yn cael ei weithredu ar lawr gwlad. Bydd Aelodau a oedd yma yn y Cynulliad blaenorol yn gwybod ein bod wedi bod yma o’r blaen, fel y soniodd Paul Davies. Roedd y cynlluniau yn 2006, er enghraifft, yng nghanolbarth a gorllewin Cymru, yn newid o gael ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth i gael ysbytai cyffredinol gwledig, ac nid oedd unrhyw sicrwydd absoliwt o gwbl am y mathau o wasanaethau a allai fod ar gael yno. Erbyn hyn mae gennym wahanol fath o Lywodraeth a gwahanol fath o Weinidog, a fydd yn edrych yn ofalus ar y materion hyn. Buddsoddodd y Llywodraeth flaenorol £140 miliwn yn y gwasanaethau yn Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais, Ysbyty’r Tywysog Philip, Ysbyty Cyffredinol Glangwili ac Ysbyty Cyffredinol Llwynhelyg, ac yr wyf yn diolch i’r Llywodraeth am wneud hynny. Fodd bynnag, bydd yn cael ei wastraffu os byddwn yn troi ein cefnau a chael gwared ar y gwasanaethau craidd y mae pobl yn disgwyl iddynt gael eu darparu yn eu cymunedau lleol. Mae’n ddyletswydd ar y Llywodraeth hon i gymryd llawer mwy o ddylanwad rheoli—unwaith eto, ni fyddwch yn fy nghlywed yn dweud hynny’n aml—oherwydd mae angen i’r mater hwn gael ei yrru o’r brig, gan ei fod yn wasanaeth iechyd cenedlaethol. Fel y dywedodd Elin Jones, mae atebolrwydd lleol wedi, i bob pwrpas, ei gymryd i ffwrdd oddi wrth fyrddau iechyd lleol. Maent yn fyrddau cynllunio, sydd, yn gywir ddigon, yn cynnwys clinigwyr a rheolwyr, ac sydd, yn gywir ddigon, yn gyfrifol am wario arian yn ddoeth. Fodd bynnag, mae hefyd angen gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol sy’n darparu ym mhob rhan o Gymru, gan gynnwys, yn bwysig ddigon, yn ein hardaloedd gwledig ni.

It is important to say that the campaigns that are leading the fight to keep services, particularly at Withybush hospital and Bronglais hospital, are clinician-led local campaigns—the clinicians are there and are involved in them. They are not local activists’ campaigns, local troublemakers’ campaigns, or even campaigns by local Liberal Democrats: they are clinician-led campaigns. It is important that that is put in the right context. [Interruption.] I am coming on to you in a minute, Kirsty; do not worry.

Mae’n bwysig dweud bod yr ymgyrchoedd sy’n arwain y frwydr i gadw gwasanaethau, yn enwedig yn Ysbyty Llwynhelyg ac Ysbyty Bronglais, yn cael eu harwain gan glinigwyr lleol—mae’r clinigwyr yno ac yn cymryd rhan ynddynt. Nid ymgyrchoedd gan weithredwyr lleol mohonynt, nac hyd yn oed ymgyrchoedd creu helynt lleol, nac ymgyrchoedd gan Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol lleol: ymgyrchoedd ydynt a arweinir gan glinigwyr. Mae’n bwysig bod hynny’n cael ei roi yn y cyd-destun cywir. [Torri ar draws.] Yr wyf yn dod atoch mewn munud, Kirsty; peidiwch â phoeni.

The one question that I want to ask the Minister today relates to the fact that, in the rural health plan, there was a £1 million pot for the rural health innovation fund. That lasted only one year, as was planned. Could the Minister confirm today that the rural health innovation fund will continue? On the grounds of the importance of recruitment and new ways of working such as telemedicine and so on, we want to see an innovation fund for rural areas continue.

Mae’r un cwestiwn yr wyf am ei ofyn i’r Gweinidog heddiw yn ymwneud â’r ffaith bod £1 miliwn ar gyfer y gronfa arloesi iechyd gwledig yn y cynllun iechyd gwledig. Parhaodd hwnnw blwyddyn yn unig, fel y cynlluniwyd. A all y Gweinidog gadarnhau heddiw y bydd y gronfa arloesi iechyd gwledig yn parhau? Ar sail pwysigrwydd recriwtio a ffyrdd newydd o weithio, megis telefeddygaeth ac ati, yr ydym am weld cronfa arloesi ar gyfer ardaloedd gwledig yn parhau.

Finally, it is entertaining, but never very nice, to see a political party slide away from its previously held positions. Kirsty Williams did so very elegantly today, but there is no doubt that she and the other Liberal Democrats have turned their backs on the position that they held previously of defending district general hospitals. If you go to mid and west Wales, you see that the Lib Dems have been attached like limpets to every single campaign for local hospital services, and have taken credit for them.

Yn olaf, mae’n ddifyr, ond byth yn neis iawn, gweld plaid wleidyddol yn llithro i ffwrdd o’i sefyllfaoedd blaenorol. Gwnaeth Kirsty Williams hynny mor gain heddiw, ond nid oes amheuaeth ei bod hi a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol eraill wedi troi eu cefnau ar eu sefyllfa flaenorol o amddiffyn ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Os ewch i ganolbarth a gorllewin Cymru, gwelwch fod y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi glynu fel brennig at bob un ymgyrch ar gyfer gwasanaethau ysbyty lleol, ac wedi cymryd y clod ar eu cyfer.

Kirsty Williams rose—

Kirsty Williams a gododd—

Simon Thomas: I cannot take an intervention; I said that I would be very quick.

Simon Thomas: Ni allaf dderbyn ymyriad. Dywedais y byddwn yn gyflym iawn.

Today, in her contribution, Kirsty Williams has indicated that she will be voting with the Government in favour of a centralising agenda that will take services away from our district general hospitals in rural Wales. The Liberal Democrats have let down mid Wales, and they have let down west Wales. However, we cannot be surprised that that habit of turning their backs on their policies, which started at Westminster in relation to tuition fees, has now reached the NHS in Wales.

Heddiw, yn ei chyfraniad, dywedodd Kirsty Williams y bydd yn pleidleisio gyda’r Llywodraeth o blaid agenda ganoli a fydd yn cymryd ein gwasanaethau i ffwrdd o’n hysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yng Nghymru wledig. Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi siomi canolbarth Cymru, ac maen nhw wedi siomi gorllewin Cymru. Fodd bynnag, ni allwn synnu bod yr arfer o droi eu cefnau ar eu polisïau, a ddechreuodd yn San Steffan mewn perthynas â ffioedd dysgu, yn awr wedi cyrraedd y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru.

Mick Antoniw: When Elin Jones moved the motion, I found that there was quite a lot with which I agreed. As you said, Elin, there is a constant need for the NHS to change. The problem is that the motion states the exact opposite: it debars change. It would almost prevent us from making any adaptations or changes, whatever the need might be. I know that I will shoot to death any credibility that I have left, Kirsty, but I have to say that I agreed with a lot of what you said—I can see this being tweeted. There are immense pressures, and there is a relationship between the various things that are happening. One thing that will hit us hard—we will have to start thinking about how we will adapt to it—is what is effectively the UK Government’s NHS privatisation Bill, whereby we will face massive difficulty in recruiting and selecting consultants. Consultants will be cherry-picked and will be offered all sorts of bonuses and terms, and the recruitment problem that we have at the moment will become even more difficult. There should be unanimity in the Chamber that clinical excellence and safety are the key features in any decision making.

Mick Antoniw: Pan gynigiodd Elin Jones y cynnig, canfûm fod cryn dipyn y cytunais ag ef. Fel y dywedasoch, Elin, mae angen cyson i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol newid. Y broblem yw bod y cynnig yn dweud y gwrthwyneb: mae’n atal newid. Byddai bron yn ein rhwystro rhag gwneud unrhyw addasiadau neu newidiadau, beth bynnag fyddai’r angen. Gwn y byddaf yn saethu i farwolaeth unrhyw hygrededd sydd gennyf ar ôl, Kirsty, ond rhaid i mi ddweud fy mod yn cytuno gyda llawer o’r hyn a ddywedasoch—gallaf weld hyn yn cael ei trydar. Mae pwysau aruthrol, ac mae perthynas rhwng yr amrywiol bethau sy’n digwydd. Un peth a fydd yn ein taro ni’n galed—a bydd rhaid i ni ddechrau meddwl am sut y byddwn yn ymaddasu iddo—yw’r hyn sydd yn effeithiol ym Mil Llywodraeth y DU ar gyfer preifateiddio’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, lle byddwn yn wynebu anawsterau anferthol wrth recriwtio a dewis ymgynghorwyr. Bydd ymgynghorwyr yn cael eu dewis a’i dethol a byddant yn cael pob math o daliadau bonws a thelerau wedi eu cynnig iddynt, a bydd y broblem recriwtio sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd yn dod yn hyd yn oed yn fwy anodd. Dylai fod unfrydedd yn y Siambr fod rhagoriaeth a diogelwch clinigol yn nodweddion allweddol mewn unrhyw broses o wneud penderfyniadau.

Lord Elis-Thomas: I am grateful to you for your reference to medical education, but would you not agree that the key issue for us is to have an extremely well-developed system of clinical education, at graduate and postgraduate level, throughout Wales, at the university health boards? That would allow us to develop a cadre of medical experts that will want to serve NHS Wales.

Yr Arglwydd Elis-Thomas: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar ichi am eich cyfeiriad at addysg feddygol, ond oni fyddech yn cytuno mai’r mater allweddol i ni yw cael system addysg glinigol hynod ddatblygedig, ar lefel raddedig ac ôl-raddedig ledled Cymru, yn y byrddau iechyd prifysgol? Byddai hynny’n ein galluogi i ddatblygu cnewyllyn o arbenigwyr meddygol a fydd yn awyddus i wasanaethu gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol Cymru.

4.45 p.m.

Mick Antoniw: I agree with that entirely; I have no difficulty with that. Moving on, an appeal that I wanted to make to the Minister is that, while I fully support the idea of having a clinicians’ forum, it is not enough. We need a people’s forum alongside it. The NHS belongs to the people. The key aspect of the NHS that is unique to the health service of this country is that people feel ownership of it. I do not know of any other country where people feel the same level of ownership of the health service. I ask that you consider the possibility of establishing a parallel forum that involves ordinary users, patients and so on. It would consider the same kind of evidence, as well as the recommendations, and have an input into any changes that you feel are necessary to make.

Mick Antoniw: Rwy’n cytuno â hynny yn llwyr; nid oes gennyf unrhyw broblem gyda hynny. Gan symud ymlaen, roeddwn am wneud apêl i’r Gweinidog: er fy mod yn cefnogi’n llwyr y syniad o gael fforwm clinigwyr, nid yw’n ddigon. Mae angen fforwm i bobl ochr yn ochr iddo. Mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn perthyn i’r bobl. Y brif agwedd ar y GIG sy’n unigryw i’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn y wlad hon yw bod pobl yn teimlo perchnogaeth drosto. Nid wyf yn gwybod am unrhyw wlad arall lle mae pobl yn teimlo’r un lefel o berchnogaeth dros y gwasanaeth iechyd. Rwy’n gofyn i chi ystyried y posibilrwydd o sefydlu fforwm cyfochrog sy’n cynnwys defnyddwyr cyffredin, cleifion ac yn y blaen. Byddai’n ystyried yr un math o dystiolaeth, yn ogystal â’r argymhellion, ac yn cael mewnbwn i unrhyw newidiadau yr ydych yn teimlo bod angen eu gwneud.

Aled Roberts: Diolchaf i Blaid Cymru am y cyfle i gael trafod y mater pwysig hwn. Rhan o’r broblem sy’n ein hwynebu yw nad oes digon o drafod ynglŷn â’r sefyllfa ar lawr gwlad.

Aled Roberts: I thank Plaid Cymru for the opportunity to discuss this important matter. Part of the problem that faces us is that there is not enough discussion of the situation on the ground.

One of the difficulties facing us, as Elin Jones acknowledged, is that a lot of this is down to emotion. Many of the difficulties that we are facing are due to the fact that the local health boards that are charged with providing these policies are lacking when it comes to their consultation exercises. A number of us were present at a discussion with clinicians from Ysbyty Glan Clwyd some weeks ago. It was clear that they have little or no confidence in the consultation process of the LHB. The Minister will need to ensure that those consultation processes are improved and, thereafter, there will have to be an assumption of ministerial responsibility for the plans coming forward from the LHBs.

Un o’r anawsterau sy’n ein hwynebu, fel y cydnabu Elin Jones, yw bod llawer o hyn yn seiliedig ar emosiwn. Mae llawer o’r anawsterau yr ydym yn eu hwynebu yn codi oherwydd bod y byrddau iechyd lleol sy’n gyfrifol am ddarparu’r polisïau hyn yn ddiffygiol o ran eu hymarferion ymgynghori. Roedd nifer ohonom yn bresennol mewn trafodaeth gyda chlinigwyr o Ysbyty Glan Clwyd rai wythnosau yn ôl. Roedd yn amlwg mai ychydig iawn o hyder sydd ganddynt, neu ddim hyder o gwbl, ym mhroses ymgynghori’r bwrdd iechyd. Bydd angen i’r Gweinidog sicrhau bod y prosesau ymgynghori hynny yn cael eu gwella a, wedi hynny, bydd yn rhaid cael rhagdybiaeth o gyfrifoldeb gweinidogol am y cynlluniau sy’n cael eu cyflwyno gan y byrddau iechyd.

We also need a sophisticated level of debate on this issue in Wales. Most of us, as a matter of course, will revert to emotion and try to protect our district general hospitals. The reality is that, if the change is proposed for reasons of clinical safety, then we must be willing to adapt, as Elin acknowledged. That is why there is a problem with how the motion is worded.

Mae hefyd arnom angen lefel soffistigedig o drafodaeth ar y mater hwn yng Nghymru. Bydd y rhan fwyaf ohonom, fel mater o drefn, yn troi at emosiwn ac yn ceisio diogelu ein hysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Y gwir amdani yw, os bydd y newid yn cael ei gynnig am resymau diogelwch clinigol, yna mae’n rhaid i ni fod yn barod i ymaddasu, fel y cydnabu Elin. Dyna pam y mae problem gyda sut y mae’r cynnig wedi’i eirio.

Darren Millar: You will be aware that the royal colleges produced a report suggesting that there should be a single maternity service for the whole of the north Wales region. That is their ideal solution. Are you saying that you accept that?

Darren Millar: Byddwch yn ymwybodol bod y colegau brenhinol wedi llunio adroddiad yn awgrymu y dylid cael un gwasanaeth mamolaeth ar gyfer rhanbarth gogledd Cymru. Dyna eu hateb delfrydol. A ydych chi’n dweud eich bod yn derbyn hynny?

Aled Roberts: No, I am not. What I am saying is that we must wait and see the cases that are put forward. If there are clinical safety issues in north Wales, then the Minister must have regard to them. For example, vascular surgery is being centralised, and throat cancer surgery was centralised in Wrexham, which led to a huge increase in patient survival rates, to such an extent that patients are now being brought in from England. The problem is that there is no confidence in north Wales that this process is being driven by clinical safety rather than by cost-cutting or a mantra of centralisation, and it sounds as if the same is true of mid and west Wales. That is what we need to do, but we need to await the results of the reviews and see what comes out. We also need to have regard to the letter from the royal colleges in The Guardian and the letter from the deputy director of policy at the King’s Fund, who identified, some 18 months ago, that this problem exists across the UK. She stated that changes to the way that hospital services are organised in some parts of the country are now a necessity, not an option.

Aled Roberts: Na, nid wyf yn dweud hynny. Rwy’n dweud bod yn rhaid i ni aros i weld y dadleuon sy’n cael eu cyflwyno. Os oes problemau o ran diogelwch clinigol yng ngogledd Cymru, yna rhaid i’r Gweinidog roi sylw iddynt. Er enghraifft, mae llawfeddygaeth fasgwlaidd yn cael ei ganoli, a chafodd llawdriniaeth canser y gwddf ei ganoli yn Wrecsam, a arweiniodd at gynnydd enfawr i gyfraddau goroesi cleifion, i’r fath raddau bod cleifion bellach yn dod yno o Loegr. Y broblem yw nad oes hyder yn y gogledd bod y broses hon yn cael ei gyrru gan ddiogelwch clinigol yn hytrach na gan dorri costau neu fantra o ganoli, ac mae’n swnio fel pe bai’r un peth yn wir am y canolbarth a’r gorllewin. Dyna y mae angen inni ei wneud, ond mae angen inni aros am ganlyniadau’r adolygiadau a gweld beth sy’n cael ei gyhoeddi. Mae angen inni hefyd roi sylw i’r llythyr gan y colegau brenhinol yn The Guardian a’r llythyr oddi wrth ddirprwy gyfarwyddwr polisi The King’s Fund, a nododd, rhyw 18 mis yn ôl, fod y broblem hon yn bodoli ar draws y DU. Dywedodd bod newidiadau i’r ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau ysbyty eu trefnu mewn rhai rhannau o’r wlad nawr yn anghenraid, ac nid yn opsiwn.

If the NHS is to deliver safe and high-quality care then, as a result of growing financial pressures and difficulties in recruiting staff with the right skills, politicians must grasp the nettle. If we are to be truthful, the problem is that, for too long, as politicians we have failed to grasp the nettle, at a local authority level or elsewhere. It is not as easy as saying that we must protect district general hospitals come what may; there are services that are centralised in district hospitals that should be sent out to the community. Depending on the nature of services in your particular area, you can adopt a particular mantra. If you have a district general hospital, then you want to protect it. On the other hand, in Wrexham, community hospitals have disappeared from the radar. We now have only a district general hospital. Elderly patients are being taken there for rehabilitation and it is the worst possible thing for them.

Os yw’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol am ddarparu gofal diogel ac o ansawdd uchel, yna, o ganlyniad i bwysau ariannol cynyddol ac anawsterau wrth recriwtio staff sydd â’r sgiliau cywir, rhaid i wleidyddion fynd i’r afael â’r mater. Os ydym am fod yn onest, y broblem yw ein bod ni fel gwleidyddion, am gyfnod rhy hir, wedi methu â mynd i’r afael â’r mater, ar lefel awdurdod lleol neu mewn mannau eraill. Nid yw mor hawdd â dweud bod yn rhaid i ni amddiffyn ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth doed a ddêl; mae yna wasanaethau sy’n cael eu canoli mewn ysbytai dosbarth y dylid eu hanfon allan i’r gymuned. Yn ddibynnol ar natur y gwasanaethau yn eich ardal chi, gallwch chi fabwysiadu mantra penodol. Os oes gennych ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth, yna rydych am ei ddiogelu. Ar y llaw arall, yn Wrecsam, mae ysbytai cymunedol wedi diflannu o’r radar. Erbyn hyn, ysbyty cyffredinol dosbarth yn unig sydd gennym. Mae cleifion oedrannus yn cael eu cymryd yno ar gyfer adsefydlu, a dyma’r peth gwaethaf posibl ar eu cyfer.

We need a modern system within the NHS. The Minister needs to assure us that there is going to be better consultation with clinicians and within the service, because the message that we are getting from the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board area at the moment is that clinicians are not being listened to. Thereafter, we have to ensure that, once the reviews in north Wales come to the fore, there is a proper opportunity for the public to have a say through consultation. Part of the difficulty is public accountability as far as local health boards are concerned. The size of the LHBs and their lack of democratic accountability have led to a reduction in confidence among the public. However, we will be going in the wrong direction if we give a blank cheque for retaining the status quo without having regard for the evidence before us. If clinical safety issues show that there should be a different way forward, as politicians, we need to assume responsibility for that change.

Mae arnom angen system fodern o fewn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Mae angen i’r Gweinidog roi sicrwydd inni y bydd gwell ymgynghori â chlinigwyr ac o fewn y gwasanaeth, oherwydd y neges yr ydym yn ei gael gan ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr ar hyn o bryd yw nad yw clinigwyr yn cael eu clywed. Wedi hynny, mae’n rhaid i ni sicrhau, unwaith y bydd yr adolygiadau yn y gogledd yn dod i’r amlwg, y ceir cyfle priodol i’r cyhoedd gael dweud eu dweud drwy ymgynghoriadau. Rhan o’r anhawster yw atebolrwydd cyhoeddus o safbwynt byrddau iechyd lleol. Mae maint y byrddau iechyd a’u diffyg atebolrwydd democrataidd wedi arwain at ostyngiad yn hyder y cyhoedd. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn mynd i’r cyfeiriad anghywir os byddwn yn rhoi siec wag ar gyfer cadw pethau fel ag y maent, heb roi ystyriaeth i’r dystiolaeth sydd ger ein bron. Os bydd problemau o ran diogelwch clinigol yn dangos y dylai fod ffordd wahanol ymlaen, fel gwleidyddion, mae angen i ni gymryd cyfrifoldeb am y newid hwnnw.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Lesley Griffiths): I will start my response by saying that I absolutely understand the reason for this motion. People value services that they know and understand, and politicians seek to support their electorates when they have concerns about the services they value. However—and I will return to this later—politicians have a further, wider responsibility. Turning to the amendments, I will support the Liberal Democrat amendment, amendment 3, and the Conservative amendment, amendment 4. I have already made it clear that health services need to be safe, sustainable, effective and of a high quality. That must be the underlying principle of every service. District general hospitals will continue to play a crucial role in our NHS, but we need to consider the provision of services to ensure that patients continue to receive the best possible care. However, I will oppose amendment 2 because we do not want to compromise the ability of local health boards to establish world-class trauma care, for instance, or restrict them in doing what they need to do. The NHS has never stood still, and cannot do so, and I think that that is widely accepted by Members.

Y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Dechreuaf fy ymateb drwy ddweud fy mod yn deall yn llwyr y rheswm dros y cynnig hwn. Mae pobl yn gwerthfawrogi’r gwasanaethau y maent yn eu hadnabod ac yn eu deall, ac mae gwleidyddion yn ceisio cefnogi eu hetholwyr pan fydd ganddynt bryderon am y gwasanaethau y maent yn eu gwerthfawrogi. Fodd bynnag—a byddaf yn dychwelyd at hyn yn ddiweddarach—mae gan wleidyddion gyfrifoldeb pellach ac ehangach. Gan droi at y gwelliannau, byddaf yn cefnogi gwelliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, gwelliant 3, a gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr, gwelliant 4. Rwyf eisoes wedi ei gwneud yn glir bod angen i wasanaethau iechyd fod yn ddiogel, yn gynaliadwy, yn effeithiol ac o ansawdd uchel. Rhaid i hynny fod yn egwyddor sylfaenol i bob gwasanaeth. Bydd ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn parhau i chwarae rhan hollbwysig yn ein gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, ond mae angen i ni ystyried y modd y caiff gwasanaethau eu darparu er mwyn sicrhau bod cleifion yn parhau i dderbyn y gofal gorau posibl. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant 2 oherwydd nid ydym am beryglu gallu byrddau iechyd lleol i sefydlu gofal trawma a safon byd-eang, er enghraifft, neu gyfyngu ar eu gallu i wneud yr hyn y mae angen iddynt ei wneud. Nid yw’r GIG erioed wedi sefyll yn llonydd, ac ni all wneud hynny, ac rwy’n meddwl bod hynny’n cael ei dderbyn yn eang gan Aelodau.

There are four major reasons why services must change and evolve. The pattern of diseases and demand is constantly changing—people are living longer and chronic conditions are more common. Clinical practice is changing, and evidence shows that more can be done in the community and that more should be done in specialist centres. We are not using our resources as well as we should—too many services are spread too thinly and there is an ageing infrastructure. As Members mentioned, recruitment is becoming more difficult.

Mae yna bedwar prif reswm pam y mae’n rhaid i wasanaethau newid a datblygu. Mae’r patrwm o glefydau a galw yn newid yn gyson—mae pobl yn byw’n hirach ac mae cyflyrau cronig yn fwy cyffredin. Mae arferion clinigol yn newid, ac mae tystiolaeth yn dangos y gellir gwneud mwy yn y gymuned ac y dylid gwneud mwy mewn canolfannau arbenigol. Nid ydym yn defnyddio ein hadnoddau gystal ag y dylem—mae gormod o wasanaethau wedi’u lledaenu yn rhy denau ac mae seilwaith yn heneiddio. Fel y soniwyd gan Aelodau, mae recriwtio yn dod yn fwy anodd.

Bethan Jenkins: You mentioned ageing infrastructure. Under the One Wales Government, we agreed not to use private finance initiatives in the health service. So far, this Government has been silent on the use of PFI. Will you commit here today not to use PFI in the health service?

Bethan Jenkins: Soniasoch am seilwaith sy’n heneiddio. O dan y Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un, cytunwyd i beidio â defnyddio mentrau cyllid preifat yn y gwasanaeth iechyd. Hyd yn hyn, mae’r Llywodraeth hon wedi bod yn dawel o ran y defnydd o fenter cyllid preifat PFI. A wnewch chi ymrwymo yma heddiw i beidio â defnyddio PFI yn y gwasanaeth iechyd?

Lesley Griffiths: I am not a fan of PFI. You have to accept, however, with regard to putting money into hospitals, that our capital budget has been reduced by a huge amount and that we are not going to have the money that was available to the last Government. The more we try to say that change is not an option, the more problems we will create for the future. We have to keep reviewing services and rethinking how best to use our staff and how best to focus services on the basis of the evidence. As a Government, we absolutely accept the role of district general hospitals, and we will protect and develop their role as part of a constantly improving NHS. However, it is not the buildings or the titles that matter, but the services, the results for the patient and the outcomes. That is where we are going to put our emphasis.

Lesley Griffiths: Nid wyf yn gefnogwr o PFI. Rhaid ichi dderbyn, fodd bynnag, o ran rhoi arian i mewn i ysbytai, bod ein cyllideb gyfalaf wedi cael ei lleihau yn sylweddol ac na fydd gennym yr arian a oedd ar gael i’r Llywodraeth flaenorol. Po fwyaf yr ydym yn ceisio dweud nad yw newid yn opsiwn, y mwyaf o broblemau y byddwn yn eu creu ar gyfer y dyfodol. Mae’n rhaid i ni barhau i adolygu gwasanaethau ac ailfeddwl ynghylch y ffordd orau o ddefnyddio ein staff a’r ffordd orau i ganolbwyntio gwasanaethau ar sail y dystiolaeth. Fel Llywodraeth, rydym yn derbyn rôl ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, a byddwn yn diogelu ac yn datblygu eu rôl fel rhan o wasanaeth iechyd gwladol sy’n gwella’n gyson. Fodd bynnag, nid yr adeiladau neu’r teitlau sy’n bwysig, ond y gwasanaethau a’r canlyniadau ar gyfer cleifion. Dyna lle’r ydym yn mynd i roi ein pwyslais.

Kirsty Williams made a very pragmatic speech. District general hospitals across Wales are essential to the provision of local services. I can assure Members today that none will close during the course of this Government. There is no definition of what services district general hospitals should provide. They have always provided, and still do provide, a wide range of services, and they will continue to be the main provider of hospital-based care for local people and communities. It must be remembered, when we are talking about hospitals, that 90 per cent of all health contacts take place in the community. It is therefore essential that appropriate GP and community services are in place before any changes are made to hospital services. That is the message that I have given to all the local health boards. Changes have to reflect local circumstances. Change will be clinically driven and based on the best available evidence. It will also be locally led. Different places have different and changing needs, and local needs are best met by local solutions.

Gwnaeth Kirsty Williams araith bragmatig iawn. Mae ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth ledled Cymru yn hanfodol er mwyn darparu gwasanaethau lleol. Gallaf roi sicrwydd i Aelodau heddiw na fydd un ohonynt yn cau yn ystod cyfnod y Llywodraeth hon. Nid oes diffiniad o’r gwasanaeth y dylai ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth eu darparu. Maent bob amser wedi darparu ystod eang o wasanaethau, maent yn dal i wneud hynny, a byddant yn parhau i fod yn brif ddarparwr gofal ysbyty ar gyfer pobl a chymunedau lleol. Rhaid cofio, pan fyddwn yn sôn am ysbytai, bod 90 y cant o’r holl gysylltiadau â’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn digwydd yn y gymuned. Felly, mae’n hanfodol bod gwasanaethau meddygon teulu a chymunedol priodol ar gael cyn gwneud unrhyw newidiadau i wasanaethau ysbytai. Dyna’r neges rwyf wedi’i roi i’r holl fyrddau iechyd lleol. Rhaid i newidiadau adlewyrchu amgylchiadau lleol. Bydd newid yn cael ei yrru yn glinigol a bydd yn seiliedig ar y dystiolaeth orau sydd ar gael. Bydd hefyd yn cael ei arwain yn lleol. Mae gan wahanol leoedd anghenion gwahanol a newidiol, a chaiff anghenion lleol eu diwallu orau gan atebion lleol.

The development of integrated primary and community-led services is of real and significant importance. Such services will ensure prevention, early detection and high-quality care, supporting people to live independently at home and avoiding unnecessary admissions to hospital. Many patients tell us that they want services closer to home, but that they are happy to travel for specialist care where clinical advice supports that.

Mae datblygu gwasanaethau sylfaenol a chymunedol integredig o bwys gwirioneddol a sylweddol. Bydd gwasanaethau o’r fath yn sicrhau ein bod yn atal afiechydon, eu canfod yn gynnar, ac yn rhoi gofal o ansawdd uchel, gan gefnogi pobl i fyw’n annibynnol yn eu cartrefi ac osgoi derbyniadau diangen i’r ysbyty. Mae llawer o gleifion yn dweud wrthym eu bod am gael gwasanaethau yn agosach at adref, ond eu bod yn barod i deithio i gael gofal arbenigol lle mae cyngor clinigol yn cefnogi hynny.

Turning to the national clinical forum, it is clear that Darren Millar does not understand what it is.

Gan droi at y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol, mae’n amlwg nad yw Darren Millar yn deall beth ydyw.

Darren Millar: Yes, I do.

Darren Millar: Ydw, rwy’n deall.

Lesley Griffiths: No, you do not. I knew that Members had concerns; I have read about them in the media, even if I have not heard them from anywhere else. I set up the national clinical forum. It is an NHS forum. I did not have to make a statement in the Chamber about it. It has not been set up to advise me; it has been set up to look at the plans. Mick Antoniw mentioned a patients’ forum; that is what community health councils are. They are the voice of the patient and it is important that the CHCs engage with patients and individuals as we go through these plans.

Lesley Griffiths: Na, nid ydych yn deall. Roeddwn i’n gwybod bod gan Aelodau bryderon; rwyf wedi darllen amdanynt yn y cyfryngau, hyd yn oed os nad wyf wedi eu clywed yn unrhyw le arall. Fi a sefydlodd y fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol. Fforwm y GIG ydyw. Nid oedd yn rhaid i mi wneud datganiad yn y Siambr am y peth. Ni chafodd ei sefydlu i roi cyngor i mi; mae wedi cael ei sefydlu i edrych ar y cynlluniau. Soniodd Mick Antoniw am fforwm cleifion; dyna yw cynghorau iechyd cymuned. Nhw yw llais y claf ac mae’n bwysig bod y cynghorau iechyd cymuned yn ymgysylltu â chleifion ac unigolion wrth inni fynd drwy’r cynlluniau hyn.

Ann Jones: Do you not agree, Minister, that the health boards are now trying to bring the CHCs in on the review groups, which ties them in significantly to the outcome? Does that not represent a conflict of interest with regard to their advocacy role and their independence?

Ann Jones: Onid ydych yn cytuno, Weinidog, fod y byrddau iechyd nawr yn ceisio dod â’r cynghorau iechyd cymuned i mewn ar y grwpiau adolygu, sy’n eu clymu yn sylweddol at y canlyniad? Onid yw hynny’n cynrychioli gwrthdaro buddiannau o ran eu rôl eiriolaeth a’u hannibyniaeth?

Lesley Griffiths: It is really important that CHCs retain an independent voice. I met the chairs of local health boards this week and I mentioned that to them.

Lesley Griffiths: Mae’n bwysig iawn bod cynghorau iechyd cymuned yn cadw llais annibynnol. Cyfarfûm â chadeiryddion y byrddau iechyd lleol yr wythnos hon a chrybwyllais hynny iddynt.

With regard to specialist services, it is not only Wales that faces these changes. I read that, in the Greater London area, for example, there was a huge controversy about shutting down some stroke services in 2010. Now, its stroke care is acknowledged as among the best in the world. Previously, its stroke care was spread across 30 hospitals; it has now been centralised on eight sites. That is the sort of service that I want to see—although not necessarily the centralisation, as we do not want that. However, we need a better or equal standard of care for the people of Wales.

O ran gwasanaethau arbenigol, nid dim ond Cymru sy’n wynebu’r newidiadau hyn. Rwyf wedi darllen bod dadlau mawr yn ardal Llundain Fwyaf, er enghraifft, ynghylch dod â rhai gwasanaethau strôc i ben yn 2010. Erbyn hyn, mae’r gofal strôc yno yn cael ei gydnabod ymysg y gorau yn y byd. Yn flaenorol, roedd gofal strôc yn cael ei ddarparu mewn 30 o ysbytai; mae bellach wedi cael ei ganoli ar wyth safle. Dyna’r math o wasanaeth yr wyf am ei weld—ond nid o reidrwydd y canoli, gan nad ydym am weld hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae arnom angen gwell safon, neu gystal safon, o ofal ar gyfer pobl Cymru.

We must avoid perpetuating a situation in which there are significant differences in performance between hospitals. The variation that we see in Wales at the moment is not acceptable. We need to see much more consistency in services across Wales. Maintaining thinly staffed services is not sensible, not just because of the current financial situation, but because of the workforce pressures.

Mae’n rhaid i ni beidio â pharhau â’r sefyllfa lle mae gwahaniaethau sylweddol mewn perfformiad rhwng ysbytai. Nid yw’r amrywiad a welwn yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd yn dderbyniol. Mae angen i ni weld llawer mwy o gysondeb mewn gwasanaethau ledled Cymru. Nid yw cynnal gwasanaethau gyda nifer isel o staff yn synhwyrol, nid yn unig oherwydd y sefyllfa ariannol bresennol, ond oherwydd y pwysau ar y gweithlu.

Darren Millar: Will you take an intervention?

Darren Millar: A wnewch chi gymryd ymyriad?

Lesley Griffiths: No, I have taken two already.

Lesley Griffiths: Na, rwyf wedi cymryd dau yn barod.

We therefore need to explore opportunities to bring services together where these problems can be resolved, so that we can enhance quality and make better use of services. Therefore, as everyone recognises, except perhaps a couple of Conservatives, change is inevitable.

Felly, mae angen i ni ymchwilio i gyfleoedd i ddod â gwasanaethau at ei gilydd lle y gellir datrys y problemau hyn, fel y gallwn wella ansawdd a gwneud gwell defnydd o wasanaethau. Felly, fel y mae pawb yn ei gydnabod, heblaw am un neu ddau o Geidwadwyr, efallai, mae newid yn anochel.

Where changes are proposed, I assure Members that those who are likely to be affected will have a say. Local health boards know that they have to have open and transparent consultation. I have also told them all that they must engage with Assembly Members, and also MPs, if they want to get involved. There must be political engagement. LHBs will work openly and collaboratively in line with the guidance that we have issued. If any Member wishes to receive a briefing as the plans develop, I am happy to arrange that.

Pan fydd newidiadau yn cael eu cynnig, rwy’n rhoi sicrwydd i Aelodau y bydd y rhai sy’n debygol o weld effaith hyn yn cael dweud eu dweud. Mae byrddau iechyd lleol yn gwybod bod yn rhaid iddynt gael ymgynghori agored a thryloyw. Rwyf hefyd wedi dweud wrthynt i gyd fod yn rhaid iddynt ymgysylltu ag Aelodau’r Cynulliad, ac hefyd Aelodau Seneddol, os ydynt am gymryd rhan. Rhaid cael ymgysylltiad gwleidyddol. Bydd byrddau iechyd lleol yn gweithio’n agored ac ar y cyd yn unol â’r canllawiau a gyhoeddwyd gennym. Os bydd unrhyw Aelod yn dymuno cael ei friffio wrth i’r cynlluniau ddatblygu, rwy’n hapus i drefnu hynny.

I know that change is not always easy to accept; we all recognise that. It will not be easy for the dedicated staff working in the NHS and it will not be easy for patients to accept either. In Wales, we want to build an NHS that meets not only today’s challenges, but the challenges of the future.

Gwn nad yw newid bob amser yn hawdd i’w dderbyn; rydym i gyd yn cydnabod hynny. Ni fydd yn hawdd i’r staff ymroddedig sy’n gweithio yn y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, ac ni fydd yn hawdd i gleifion ei dderbyn ychwaith. Yng Nghymru, rydym am adeiladu gwasanaeth iechyd sydd nid yn unig yn ymateb i heriau heddiw, ond heriau’r dyfodol.

I will answer the specific question asked by Simon Thomas on the role of the innovation fund. It was £1 million last year, as you mentioned; it is £750,000 this year, and it will be £500,000 next year.

Rwyf am ateb y cwestiwn penodol a ofynnwyd gan Simon Thomas ar rôl y gronfa arloesi. Maint y gronfa oedd £1 miliwn y llynedd, fel y soniasoch; £750,000 ydyw eleni, a bydd yn £500,000 y flwyddyn nesaf.

To conclude, decisions on changing hospital services are controversial. We need to see a little bit more honesty from some Members in the Chamber. I remind Members of their responsibility. I do not want to hear talk of downgrading or mergers when we have not even seen the plans yet. No-one has seen the plans. We need to ensure that we are not the ones who are scaremongering.

I gloi, mae penderfyniadau ynglŷn â newid gwasanaethau ysbyty yn ddadleuol. Mae angen i ni weld ychydig mwy o onestrwydd gan rai Aelodau yn y Siambr. Atgoffaf yr Aelodau o’u cyfrifoldeb. Nid wyf am glywed sôn am israddio neu gyfuno pan nad ydym wedi gweld y cynlluniau eto hyd yn oed. Nid oes unrhyw un wedi gweld y cynlluniau. Mae angen i ni sicrhau nad ni yw’r rhai sy’n codi bwganod.

Elin Jones: I thank Members for their contribution to the debate this afternoon. In her contribution, Jenny Rathbone seemed to suggest that ‘a bunch of politicians’, to use her words, should not be discussing the shape of hospital services. I find that comment incredible, particularly coming from a Labour Member. The NHS is a wholly political construct, created out of political ideology and social need and wholly funded by public money. It is therefore right that the Assembly debates, has views on and provides direction for the future shaping of the NHS.

Elin Jones: Diolch i’r Aelodau am eu cyfraniad i’r ddadl y prynhawn yma. Yn ei chyfraniad, roedd hi’n ymddangos bod Jenny Rathbone yn awgrymu na ddylai ‘criw o wleidyddion’, i ddefnyddio ei geiriau hi, fod yn trafod ffurf gwasanaethau ysbyty. Credaf fod y sylw hwnnw’n rhyfeddol, yn enwedig gan Aelod o’r Blaid Lafur. Mae’r GIG yn luniad cwbl wleidyddol, a grëwyd allan o ideoleg wleidyddol ac anghenion cymdeithasol, ac a ariennir yn gyfan gwbl gan arian cyhoeddus. Mae’n briodol, felly, bod y Cynulliad yn trafod ffurf y GIG yn y dyfodol, yn rhoi barn arno, ac yn rhoi cyfeiriad ar ei gyfer.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair am 5 p.m.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair at 5 p.m.

This motion today may have been a bit of a blunt instrument, but it has drawn out a debate that could well shape the political discussion about the NHS for the period of this Government. Most of the politicians who won and lost elections in May delivered leaflets and collected petitions with various pledges about the NHS in their constituency. I fondly remember those Lib Dem leaflets opposing downgrading for Bronglais General Hospital, but here, today, they are seemingly giving a green light to local health boards, and Hywel Dda Local Health Board in that context, to do as they choose.

Efallai bod y cynnig hwn heddiw wedi bod yn dipyn o offeryn di-fin, ond y mae wedi tynnu allan dadl a allai ffurfio’r drafodaeth wleidyddol am y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ar gyfer cyfnod y Llywodraeth hon. Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r gwleidyddion a enillodd ac a gollodd etholiadau ym mis Mai wedi cyflwyno taflenni a chasglu deisebau gydag amrywiol addewidion am y GIG yn eu hetholaeth. Mae’n ddymunol cofio rhai o daflenni’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a oedd yn gwrthwynebu israddio ar gyfer Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais, ond yma, heddiw, yn ôl pob golwg, maent yn rhoi rhwydd hynt i fyrddau iechyd lleol, a Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, i wneud fel y mynnant.

Kirsty Williams: It is not clear to me why it is difficult to understand in our amendment and the principle that we believe in, namely that services should be delivered as close to people’s homes as possible, where it is clinically safe to do so.

Kirsty Williams: Nid yw’n glir i mi pam ei bod yn anodd ei ddeall yn ein gwelliant a’r egwyddor yr ydym yn credu ynddi, sef y dylai gwasanaethau gael eu cyflenwi mor agos i gartrefi pobl ag sy’n bosibl, os yw’n glinigol ddiogel i wneud hynny.

Simon Thomas’s complaints would be slightly more credible if he had not been part of a Government that for the last four years presided over a recruitment and retention problem that is making it difficult to staff our district general hospitals, and commissioned the very plans that he now seeks to denigrate. Your Cabinet commissioned the plans. They are your plans.

Byddai cwynion Simon Thomas ychydig yn fwy credadwy pe na bai wedi bod yn rhan o Lywodraeth sydd, am y pedair blynedd diwethaf, wedi llywyddu dros broblem recriwtio a chadw sydd yn ei wneud yn anodd i staff ein hysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, ac wedi comisiynu’r union gynlluniau y mae ef yn awr yn ceisio eu bychanu. Eich Cabinet chi a gomisiynodd y cynlluniau. Eich cynlluniau chi ydynt.

Elin Jones: We are supporting the Lib Dem amendment this afternoon. [Laughter.] However, if you support the Government’s amendment, then you are giving the green light to Hywel Dda Local Health Board to pursue the downgrading of services, if it chooses to do so, in Bronglais General Hospital.

Elin Jones: Yr ydym yn cefnogi gwelliant y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y prynhawn yma. [Chwerthin.] Fodd bynnag, os ydych yn cefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth, yna rydych yn rhoi rhwydd hynt i Fwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda i fynd ar drywydd israddio gwasanaethau, os bydd yn dewis gwneud hynny, yn Ysbyty Cyffredinol Bronglais.

Some Members—and I follow Keith Davies AM on Twitter—are still collecting petition signatures. Such is his concern for services at Prince Philip Hospital, he was doing that on Twitter in September. Voting for the Plaid Cymru motion today would do more to ensure the future of Prince Philip Hospital than any number of signatures on a petition. I am quite amazed that the Member has not chosen to speak in this debate today. If he wants to make an intervention, I would be willing to accept it.

Mae rhai Aelodau—ac yr wyf yn dilyn Keith Davies AC ar Twitter—yn dal i gasglu llofnodion deiseb. Cymaint yw ei bryder am wasanaethau yn Ysbyty’r Tywysog Philip, roedd yn gwneud hynny ar Twitter ym mis Medi. Byddai pleidleisio o blaid cynnig Plaid Cymru heddiw yn gwneud mwy i sicrhau dyfodol Ysbyty Tywysog Philip nag unrhyw nifer o lofnodion ar ddeiseb. Yr wyf yn synnu braidd nad yw’r Aelod wedi dewis siarad yn y ddadl heddiw. Os yw am wneud ymyriad, byddwn yn fodlon ei dderbyn.

Keith Davies: Y cwbl yr wyf am ei ddweud yw hyn: nid deiseb yr ydym yn ei threfnu, ond arolwg o farn y cyhoedd ar y gwasanaethau. Yna, pan welwn y cynlluniau, byddwn yn gallu ymateb iddynt. Felly, nid deiseb ydyw ond holiadur sy’n mynd o gwmpas.

Keith Davies: All that I will say is this: we are not arranging a petition, but a survey of public opinion on the services. Then, when we see the plans, we will be able to respond to them. Therefore, it is not a petition, but a questionnaire that is being circulated.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf hefyd wedi gweld y lluniau sy’n dangos placard sy’n dweud ‘Save our local hospital’ yn yr un nodyn trydar.

Elin Jones: I have also seen the pictures showing a placard saying ‘Save our local hospital’ in the same tweet.

In his contribution, Darren Millar outlined the core of services needed to sustain the clinical integrity of district general hospitals, and I agree with that. Darren also called for a statement on the Minister’s creation of a national clinical forum. That is most definitely needed in light of the key role anticipated for it. The Minister, in her contribution, seemed to sneer at the fact that she had to hear of opposition politicians’ criticism of the creation of a national clinical forum from the media. I say to the Minister, we had to hear it from the media that you were establishing a national clinical forum. Paul Davies, in his contribution, spoke about the need for a meaningful consultation with local people if changes are to be proposed; the creation of a national clinical forum should not overshadow, or take away from, the need for proper consultation with people and clinicians locally.

Yn ei gyfraniad, amlinellodd Darren Millar graidd y gwasanaethau y mae eu hangen i gynnal cyfanrwydd clinigol ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, a chytunaf â hynny. Galwodd Darren hefyd am ddatganiad ar gread y Gweinidog o fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol. Mae angen bod yn bendant yn sgil y rôl allweddol a ragwelir ar ei gyfer. Ymddengys bod y Gweinidog, yn ei chyfraniad, yn gwawdio’r ffaith ei bod wedi clywed am feirniadaeth gwleidyddion y gwrthbleidiau o greu’r fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol gan y cyfryngau. Dywedaf wrth y Gweinidog, roedd yn rhaid i ni glywed gan y cyfryngau eich bod yn sefydlu fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol. Siaradodd Paul Davies, yn ei gyfraniad, am yr angen am ymgynghoriad ystyrlon â phobl leol os bydd newidiadau i gael eu cynnig; ni ddylai creu’r fforwm clinigol cenedlaethol daflu cysgod dros, neu gymryd oddi wrth, yr angen am ymgynghori priodol gyda phobl a chlinigwyr lleol.

Mick Antoniw seems to have read the same blog post by Victoria Winckler as I have, in that he advocated a patients’ forum alongside a clinical forum. As I said in my introduction, that is certainly something worth pursuing by the Minister. In terms of the Lib Dems’ contribution, we will be supporting their amendment as we recognise that district general hospitals exist in a wider network of hospitals and NHS facilities. However, I was slightly perplexed by Kirsty Williams’s contribution. It was very much a Brecon and Radnorshire contribution, not a national one. That is not necessarily wrong, although it seemed at one point to be advocating the downgrading of district general hospitals in order to upgrade community hospitals in her constituency. On that basis I think that the Lib Dems should not support the Government amendment today. That amendment gives LHBs the green light to undertake some of the changes that you and Aled Roberts spoke against. Even if you do not want to support the Plaid motion, please do not support the Government amendment today.

Ymddengys bod Mick Antoniw wedi darllen yr un post blog gan Victoria Winckler ag yr wyf innau, gan ei fod yn argymell fforwm cleifion ochr yn ochr â fforwm clinigol. Fel y dywedais yn fy nghyflwyniad, mae hynny’n sicr yn rhywbeth gwerth ei ddilyn gan y Gweinidog. O ran cyfraniad y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, byddwn yn cefnogi eu gwelliant gan ein bod yn cydnabod bod ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth yn bodoli mewn rhwydwaith ehangach o ysbytai a chyfleusterau GIG. Fodd bynnag, yr oeddwn mewn penbleth braidd gan gyfraniad Kirsty Williams. Cyfraniad Brycheiniog a Sir Faesyfed ydoedd, ac nid un cenedlaethol. Nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn anghywir, er yr ymddangosai ar un adeg i ddadlau o blaid israddio ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth er mwyn uwchraddio ysbytai cymunedol yn ei hetholaeth. Ar y sail honno yr wyf yn meddwl na ddylai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth heddiw. Mae’r gwelliant hwnnw’n rhoi rhwydd hynt i fyrddau iechyd lleol ymgymryd â rhai o’r newidiadau yr ydych chi ac Aled Roberts wedi siarad yn eu herbyn. Hyd yn oed os nad ydych am gefnogi cynnig Plaid, peidiwch â chefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth heddiw.

The Labour Party manifesto said nothing before the election about district general hospitals. Yesterday’s Welsh Government programme again said nothing about the important role of district general hospitals and the Government’s commitment to them. There was nothing in there; not even one of those meaningless percentage targets. Today’s motion, even if amended by amendments 2, 3 and 4, gives a clear indication of support for our network of district general hospitals, and it refuses to give local health boards carte blanche, with no local or national accountability. Until May this year, there had been two Welsh Ministers for health over the last eight years: Edwina Hart and Brian Gibbons. The former served in a Labour-Plaid Government, and the latter served in a Labour-only Government. Both Ministers had very different approaches to the NHS. Edwina Hart provided national leadership and direction to the NHS. Brian Gibbons had a more laissez-faire approach, allowing trusts and boards to do as they wished locally, leading to the disastrous ‘Designed to Deliver’ plans in 2006, which have been referred to by many previously. From what I have heard from the Minister today, if this Government amendment passes today, the new Minister will have placed herself very firmly in the Brian Gibbons school of thought, and national direction and accountability will have been given away.

Ni ddywedodd maniffesto’r Blaid Lafur unrhyw beth cyn yr etholiad am ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth. Unwaith eto, ni ddywedodd rhaglen Llywodraeth Cymru ddoe unrhyw beth am rôl bwysig ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth ac ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth iddynt. Nid oedd unrhyw beth yno; ddim hyd yn oed un o’r targedau canran diystyr hynny. Mae cynnig heddiw, hyd yn oed os y’i diwygiwyd gan welliannau 2, 3 a 4, yn rhoi arwydd clir o gefnogaeth ar gyfer ein rhwydwaith o ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, ac mae’n gwrthod rhoi rhyddid llwyr i fyrddau iechyd lleol, heb unrhyw atebolrwydd lleol neu genedlaethol. Tan fis Mai eleni, bu dau o Weinidogion ar gyfer iechyd yng Nghymru dros yr wyth mlynedd diwethaf: Edwina Hart a Brian Gibbons. Roedd y cyntaf yn gwasanaethu mewn Llywodraeth Lafur-Plaid, ac yr olaf yn gwasanaethu mewn Llywodraeth Lafur yn unig. Roedd gan y ddau Weinidog ymagweddau gwahanol iawn i’r GIG. Roedd Edwina Hart yn darparu arweinyddiaeth a chyfeiriad cenedlaethol i’r GIG. Roedd gan Brian Gibbons ddull mwy laissez faire, gan ganiatáu i ymddiriedolaethau a byrddau wneud fel y dymunent yn lleol, gan arwain at gynlluniau trychinebus ‘Cynllun Cyflenwi’ yn 2006, y cyfeiriwyd atynt gan lawer o’r blaen. O’r hyn a glywais gan y Gweinidog heddiw, os yw gwelliant y Llywodraeth hon yn pasio heddiw, bydd y Gweinidog newydd wedi gosod ei hun yn gadarn iawn yng ngharfan Brian Gibbons, a bydd cyfeiriad ac atebolrwydd cenedlaethol wedi’u dileu.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there are objections. Therefore, I will defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.

Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru
Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate

Cronfa Swyddi Cymru
The Welsh Jobs Fund

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, amendment 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies and amendments 3, 4 and 5 in the name of William Graham.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt, gwelliant 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies a gwelliannau 3, 4 a 5 yn enw William Graham.

Cynnig NDM4811 Peter Black

Motion NDM4811 Peter Black

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod ei Chronfa Swyddi Cymru yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd hyfforddi a chyflogaeth yn y sector preifat.

Calls on the Welsh government to ensure that its Welsh Jobs Fund is focused on employment and training opportunities in the private sector.

Eluned Parrott: I move the motion.

Eluned Parrott: Cynigiaf y cynnig.

I want to give a little context as to why we have introduced today’s debate. When we read the Labour manifesto and the delivery plan—the detailed document that we received yesterday—we were very glad to see something about the creation of a Welsh jobs fund. However, I would be very sorry to see this lead to the recreation of something similar to the Future Jobs Fund, which we had in Westminster. There were problems with that fund that we need to recognise, and I believe that we have an opportunity in Wales to do things a little differently and to make our money work harder.

Rwyf am roi ychydig gyd-destun ynghylch pam yr ydym wedi cyflwyno dadl heddiw. Pan ddarllenasom faniffesto Llafur a’r cynllun cyflenwi—y ddogfen fanwl a gawsom ddoe—roeddem yn falch iawn o weld rhywbeth am y gwaith o greu cronfa swyddi Cymreig. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn flin iawn i weld hyn yn arwain at ail-greu rhywbeth tebyg i Gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, a oedd gennym yn San Steffan. Cafwyd problemau gyda’r gronfa honno y mae angen inni eu cydnabod, a chredaf fod gennym gyfle yng Nghymru i wneud pethau ychydig yn wahanol ac i wneud ein harian i weithio’n galetach.

We must recognise that if we create placements that are primarily in the public and voluntary sectors, they cannot continue unless we continue to pay for them. This gives us two options: first, a long-term burden on the public purse that it simply cannot bear; or, secondly, dropping those young people like a stone at the end of their placements when the funding finishes. Neither of those things is acceptable. We need to find a way of breaking this really vicious cycle.

Rhaid inni gydnabod os ydym yn creu lleoliadau sydd yn bennaf yn y sectorau cyhoeddus a gwirfoddol, ni allant barhau oni bai ein bod yn parhau i dalu amdanynt. Mae hyn yn rhoi dau ddewis inni: yn gyntaf, baich hirdymor ar y pwrs cyhoeddus na all ei oddef; neu, yn ail, gollwng y bobl ifanc hynny fel carreg ar ddiwedd eu lleoliadau pan ddaw’r arian i ben. Nid yw’r un o’r pethau hynny’n dderbyniol. Mae angen inni ganfod ffordd o dorri’r cylch dieflig sylweddol hwn.

Back in February, the First Minister said that we have to offer young people hope in these difficult economic times. I could not agree more. Hope is a very precious thing. It is something that we can all cling to. However, it is very fragile, and it can be very cruel if people’s hopes are crushed. The Future Jobs fund raised people’s hopes, but it did not give them any chance of hoping for a future beyond the six-month placement that it gave them. It lifted them up and then dropped them like a glass on stone. The effect on these young people’s self-esteem has been absolutely crippling. I have worked with young people like this in public and community engagement projects, and I can tell you that once you have shattered their self-esteem, it is much harder to pick them up a second time. We cannot afford to put them on that kind of emotional rollercoaster.

Yn ôl ym mis Chwefror, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog fod yn rhaid inni gynnig gobaith i bobl ifanc yn ystod y cyfnod economaidd anodd hwn. Ni allwn gytuno mwy. Mae gobaith yn beth gwerthfawr iawn. Mae’n rhywbeth y gallwn i gyd lynu ato. Fodd bynnag, mae’n fregus iawn, a gall fod yn greulon iawn os caiff gobeithion pobl eu malu. Roedd cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yn codi gobeithion pobl, ond ni roddodd unrhyw siawns o obeithio am ddyfodol y tu hwnt i’r lleoliad chwe mis a roddodd iddynt. Fe’u cododd ac yna eu gollwng fel gwydr ar garreg. Mae’r effaith ar hunan-barch y bobl ifanc hyn wedi bod yn hollol andwyol. Rwyf wedi gweithio gyda phobl ifanc fel hyn mewn prosiectau ymgysylltu â’r cyhoedd a’r gymuned, a gallaf ddweud wrthych unwaith y byddwch wedi chwalu eu hunan-barch, mae’n llawer anoddach i’w codi eilwaith. Ni allwn fforddio eu rhoi ar y math hwnnw o ‘rollercoaster’ emosiynol.

These are desperate times. We need to work together on creating jobs. I believe that we can do better than the previous scheme, and if we work together, we can create something that is special, different and clever for Wales. We have an opportunity, as I said, to do things that are different. With money being scarce, what I am suggesting through today’s motion is that we use the fantastic opportunity created in this jobs fund to hit two targets at the same time. First, we need to help young people gain skills by providing training grants and jobs. However, by focusing this on the private sector, we would be helping our small and medium-sized enterprises, which are the lifeblood of our economy, to grow. We would be kick-starting them at the same time. We would be doing two lots of work with the same sum of money. If we can do those things, should we not do them?

Mae hwn yn gyfnod anobeithiol. Mae angen i ni weithio gyda’n gilydd ar greu swyddi. Credaf y gallwn wneud yn well na’r cynllun blaenorol, ac os byddwn yn gweithio gyda’n gilydd, gallwn greu rhywbeth sy’n arbennig, gwahanol a chlyfar i Gymru. Mae gennym gyfle, fel y dywedais, i wneud pethau sy’n wahanol. Gydag arian yn brin, yr hyn yr wyf yn ei awgrymu drwy’r cynnig heddiw yw ein bod yn defnyddio’r cyfle gwych a grëwyd yn y gronfa swyddi hon i gyrraedd dau darged ar yr un pryd. Yn gyntaf, mae angen helpu pobl ifanc i ennill sgiliau trwy ddarparu grantiau hyfforddi a swyddi. Fodd bynnag, drwy ganolbwyntio hyn ar y sector preifat, byddem yn helpu ein busnesau bach a chanolig eu maint, sef enaid ein heconomi, i dyfu. Byddem yn rhoi hwb iddynt ar yr un pryd. Byddem yn gwneud dwy set o waith gyda’r un swm o arian. Os gallwn wneud y pethau hynny, oni ddylem eu gwneud?

I am going to say a respectful ‘no’ to amendments 1 and 2, because the private sector belongs at the heart of job creation. Anything less than that is a lost opportunity. If the private sector does not belong at the heart of that agenda, where else does it belong?

Yr wyf yn mynd i ddweud ‘na’ barchus i welliannau 1 a 2, gan fod y sector preifat yn ganolog i greu swyddi. Mae unrhyw beth llai na hynny yn gyfle a gollwyd. Os na fydd y sector preifat yn perthyn wrth wraidd yr agenda hwnnw, ble arall y mae’n perthyn?

I ask you to support the motion without those two amendments, because it sends two messages—

Gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig heb y ddau welliant hynny, gan ei fod yn anfon dwy neges—

Simon Thomas: I am grateful to Eluned Parrott for giving way. Could she say why she is trying to put forward a focus on just the private sector? How will she deal with competition law on public subsidies for these jobs?

Simon Thomas: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Eluned Parrott am ildio. A allai ddweud pam ei bod yn ceisio rhoi gerbron ffocws ar y sector preifat yn unig? Sut y bydd yn ymdrin â chyfraith gystadleuaeth ar gymorthdaliadau cyhoeddus ar gyfer y swyddi hyn?

Eluned Parrott: We are not talking about a public subsidy for jobs; we are talking about providing grants to pay for training for skills development, because, as I said in the earlier debate, the CBI and the FSB have identified a major problem in that young people currently not in education, employment or training are not job-ready as they lack certain core skills, which we need to provide for them. That is what we are suggesting, namely that we focus that provision in the private sector so that we do not inevitably end their job placement after six months.

Eluned Parrott: Nid ydym yn sôn am gymhorthdal cyhoeddus ar gyfer swyddi; yr ydym yn sôn am ddarparu grantiau i dalu am hyfforddiant ar gyfer datblygu sgiliau, oherwydd, fel y dywedais yn y ddadl gynharach, mae’r CBI a’r Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach wedi nodi problem fawr o ran y ffaith nad yw bobl ifanc nad ydynt mewn addysg, cyflogaeth na hyfforddiant yn barod i gymryd swydd gan eu bod yn brin o sgiliau craidd penodol, y mae angen i ni ddarparu ar eu cyfer. Dyna’r hyn yr ydym yn ei awgrymu, sef ein bod yn canolbwyntio’r ddarpariaeth honno yn y sector preifat fel nad ydym yn anochel yn rhoi terfyn ar eu lleoliad gwaith ar ôl chwe mis.

I ask for the focus to remain on the private sector in this motion because it sends two important and clear signals. It says to young people, ‘We value you, we believe in you, and we’re going to invest in you by training you, and we’re going to offer you a future that lasts longer than six months’. Sadly, a consequence of the Future Jobs fund was that more than half of the young people who had a placement were back on the dole after it had finished. Sadly, 10 per cent of those were back on the dole before their placement had finished. We must do better than that.

Gofynnaf i’r ffocws aros ar y sector preifat yn y cynnig hwn am ei fod yn anfon dau arwydd pwysig a chlir. Mae’n dweud wrth bobl ifanc, ‘Rydym yn eich gwerthfawrogi chi, mae gennym ffydd ynoch, ac rydym yn mynd i fuddsoddi ynoch drwy eich hyfforddi ac rydym yn mynd i gynnig dyfodol i chi sy’n para yn hwy na chwe mis’. Yn anffodus, o ganlyniad i gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yr oedd mwy na hanner y bobl ifanc â lleoliad gwaith yn ôl ar y dôl ar ôl iddo ddod i ben. Yn anffodus, yr oedd 10 y cant o’r rheiny yn ôl ar y dôl cyn i’w lleoliad ddod i ben. Mae’n rhaid i ni wneud yn well na hynny.

The second reason is that we need to send a signal to businesses that we are serious about kick-starting the Welsh economy, and that we believe that small and medium-sized enterprises are where that kick-start should be directed. It also conveys the message that we can provide a skilled workforce that will help them to grow—we are providing them with the tools that they need.

Yr ail reswm yw bod yn rhaid i ni anfon neges i fusnesau ein bod o ddifrif ynglŷn â hybu economi Cymru, a’n bod yn credu mai at fusnesau bach a chanolig y dylid cyfeirio’r hwb cychwynnol. Mae hefyd yn cyfleu’r neges y gallwn ddarparu gweithlu medrus a fydd yn ei helpu i dyfu—yr ydym yn eu darparu gyda’r offer y mae arnynt eu hangen.

So let us be ambitious and creative and get every drop we can out of the Welsh jobs fund, and use it to help the private sector to push our economy further, because, goodness knows, we need it.

Felly gadewch inni fod yn uchelgeisiol a chreadigol a chael pob diferyn o fewn ein gallu allan o’r gronfa swyddi Cymreig, a’i defnyddio i helpu’r sector preifat i wthio ein heconomi ymhellach, oherwydd, dyn a ŵyr, yr ydym ei angen.

Gwelliant 1 Jane Hutt

Amendment 1 Jane Hutt

Yn lle ‘yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd’, rhoi ‘yn cynnwys cyfleoedd’.

Delete ‘is focused on’ and replace with ‘includes’.

The Minister for Education and Skills (Leighton Andrews): I move amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

Y Gweinidog Addysg a Sgiliau (Leighton Andrews): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt.

Gwelliant 2 Jocelyn Davies

Amendment 2 Jocelyn Davies

Dileu ‘yn y sector preifat’ a rhoi yn ei le ‘yn unol â’r Rhaglen Adnewyddu’r Economi’.

Delete ‘in the private sector’ and replace with ‘in line with the Economic Renewal Programme.’

Simon Thomas: Cynigiaf welliant 2 yn enw Jocelyn Davies.

Simon Thomas: I move amendment 2 in the name of Jocelyn Davies.

Yr ydym fel plaid yn derbyn y gwelliannau eraill ar wahân i welliant 5 yn enw William Graham.

As a party, we support the other amendments, with the exception of amendment 5 in the name of William Graham.

Yr wyf yn diolch i Eluned Parrott a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol am ddod â’r ddadl gerbron y Siambr; yr ydym yn meddwl bod y ddadl yn werth ei chael, ac yr wyf yn falch bod cyfle i glywed yr hyn sydd gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’w ddweud, er fy mod yn anghytuno â’r rhan fwyaf ohono. Mae hefyd yn gyfle inni glywed y hyn sydd gan y Gweinidog i’w ddweud, achos yr hyn sydd ar goll ar hyn o bryd yw unrhyw ddealltwriaeth o gynigion y Llywodraeth ynglŷn â chronfa swyddi Cymru. Nid oes bai ar Eluned Parrott am hynny, ond yr oeddwn yn meddwl ei bod wedi camgymryd yr hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu ei wneud, ond efallai fy mod yn anghywir a bod Eluned Parrott yn iawn. Pwy a wŷr, achos nid ydym wedi clywed yr holl fanylion eto. [Torri ar draws.] Mae tipyn o wacter ystyr ar hyn o bryd yn hynny o beth.

I thank Eluned Parrott and the Liberal Democrats for bringing this debate to the Chamber; we believe that it is a debate worth having, and I am pleased to have an opportunity to hear what the Liberal Democrats have to say, even though I disagree with most of it. It is also an opportunity for us to hear what the Minister has to say, because what is missing at present is any understanding of the Government’s proposals for the Wales jobs fund. Eluned Parrott is not to blame for that, but I thought that she had misunderstood the Government’s intentions. However, I might be wrong and Eluned Parrott might be right. Who knows? We have not yet heard all the details. [Interruption.] There is a vacuum on that issue at the moment.

Y rheswm y gwnaethom gynnig gwelliant 2 yw ein bod ni ym Mhlaid Cymru yn ymwybodol o ddau ffactor a fydd yn hynod bwysig wrth drafod y gronfa swyddi arfaethedig. Beth bynnag a ddywed Eluned Parrott, un o’r ffactorau hynny yw’r gyfraith gystadleuaeth Ewropeaidd sy’n effeithio ar y modd yr ydych yn gallu rhoi arian i gwmnïau i gyflogi unigolyn. Serch bod yr arian yn helpu gyda hyfforddiant neu’n dod â’r unigolyn i’r gweithle, mae problem o ran hynny yn ôl yr hyn yr wyf yn ei ddeall. Yn ail, ac yr wyf yn anghytuno ag Eluned Parrott ar hyn, nid wyf yn meddwl mai’r sector preifat yw’r sector gorau bob tro i gyflawni a darparu rhaglen waith fel hon. Beth yr ydym yn ceisio ei wneud yma yw cyrraedd y bobl fwyaf anodd eu cyrraedd—y bobl ifanc nad ydynt mewn swyddi, hyfforddiant nac unrhyw fath o addysg. Yr ydym yn gwybod bod nifer y bobl hynny yng Nghymru wedi codi i’r nifer uchaf erioed yn ystod y degawd diwethaf.

Our amendment 2 was moved because we in Plaid Cymru are aware of two factors that will be very important as we discuss the proposed jobs fund. Whatever Eluned Parrott says, one of those factors is European competition legislation that affects how you are able to provide funding for companies to employ people. The money might be for training or to bring individuals to the workplace, but there is a problem there, as I understand it. Secondly—I disagree with Eluned Parrott on this—I do not believe that the private sector is always the best sector to provide a work programme like this. What we are trying to do is reach those hardest to reach—the young people not in education, employment or training. We know that the number of people in that situation in Wales has risen to a record level over the last decade.

5.15 p.m.

Eluned Parrott: I think that it would be a misunderstanding for you to go away from here believing that the private sector will be training these individuals. What we are talking about is offering the private sector an opportunity to take on young people, knowing that professional training, provided by the third sector and by the professional organisations that already exist, can be supported by public funds.

Eluned Parrott: Credaf y byddai’n gamddealltwriaeth ichi fynd oddi yma gan gredu y bydd y sector preifat yn hyfforddi’r unigolion hyn. Yr hyn yr ydym yn sôn amdano yw cynnig cyfle i’r sector preifat i recriwtio pobl ifanc, gan wybod y gall hyfforddiant proffesiynol, a ddarperir gan y trydydd sector a sefydliadau proffesiynol sy’n bodoli eisoes, gael ei gefnogi gan gronfeydd cyhoeddus.

Simon Thomas: Yr ydwyf yn ddiolchgar i Eluned am y sylw. Prysuraf i’w chysuro nad dyna fy safbwynt o gwbl. Yr wyf yn dal i feddwl bod angen inni fod mor ystwyth ag y bo modd gyda rhaglen o’r fath. Er enghraifft, os edrychwch ar gyfnod o flwyddyn gyfan pan oedd y cynllun yn cael ei redeg o dan yr hen drefn yn San Steffan, yr oedd y rhan fwyaf o’r swyddi a’r lleoedd wedi’u creu drwy bartneriaethau. Yr wyf yn deall, yn derbyn ac yn pwysleisio fy hun fod angen i’r sector preifat fod yn rhan o’r bartneriaeth honno, ond yr oedd y bartnerniaeth, yn aml iawn, yn cael ei gyrru gan y sector gwirfoddol neu’r sector cyhoeddus.

Simon Thomas: I am grateful to Eluned for that comment. I will quickly reassure her that that is not at all my view. I still think that we need to be as flexible as possible with a programme of this kind. For example, if you look at the full year when the scheme was run under the old regime in Westminster, most jobs and placements were created in partnership. I understand, accept and stress that the private sector needs to be a part of that partnership, but the partnership was very often driven by the voluntary or public sector.

Bûm mor ffodus ag ymweld â ffrwyth un o’r cynlluniau hyn yn y Rhyl yn ddiweddar, sef, yr Academi Blas, dan ofal mudiad Rathbone Cymru. Mae hwn yn brosiect sydd yn dangos yn glir sut mae cydweithio fel cynllun partneriaeth lleol—strategaeth ddinesig Rhyl yn yr achos hwn—yn llwyddo i ddarparu hyfforddiant a phrofiad gwaith uniongyrchol i bobl ifanc sydd yn ei chael yn anodd sicrhau cyfle o’r fath. Mae’n bwysig tanlinellu hynny. Wrth ymweld â’r prosiect, un o’r pethau a ddywedwyd wrthyf oedd pa mor anodd oedd sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn rhan o systemau gwaith. Byddai unrhyw gyflogwr preifat wedi eu troi i ffwrdd o fewn y dyddiau neu’r wythnosau cyntaf, pan na fyddent yn dod i’r gwaith, pan fyddent yn cyrraedd yn hwyr neu’n rhoi esgusion am beidio â gwneud y gwaith. Drwy gydweithio mewn ffordd gydlynol a chynhwysfawr gyda’r bobl ifanc, yr oeddent—oni bai am rai methiannau—yn setlo i mewn i gynllun a phrofiad gwaith go iawn o fewn chwe mis. Yr oeddent yn barod wedyn i gyfoethogi’r profiad hwnnw drwy symud ymlaen. Yr hyn sy’n bwysig am y partneriaethau hyn yw eu bod wedi’u llunio ar sail anghenion swyddi lleol, ac mae pobl wedi’u hyfforddi yn barod ar gyfer y math o swyddi sydd ar gael yn y sector preifat yn yr ardaloedd hynny, er bod rhai ardaloedd yn anodd.

I was fortunate enough to see the fruits of one of these schemes recently in Rhyl—the Taste Academy run by Rathbone Cymru. This project clearly demonstrates how co-operation through a local partnership scheme—Rhyl city strategy in this case—successfully provides direct training and work experience for young people who find it difficult to access such opportunities. It is important to stress that. When I visited the project, I was told how difficult it is to ensure that young people become a part of work regimes. Any private sector employer would have turned them away within the first few days or weeks, when they did not turn up for work, when they turned up late or gave excuses for not doing the work. Through cohesive and comprehensive collaboration with the young people, they would—with only a few exceptions—settle down within six months as part of the scheme and the work experience. They were then ready to build on that experience by moving on. The important point about these partnerships is that they are formed around jobs that are needed locally, so young people are trained for the kinds of jobs that exist locally in the private sector, even though there are difficulties in some areas.

Y peth olaf i’w ddweud ynglŷn â chynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a pham nad ydym yn gallu ei gefnogi fel ag y mae, yw bod nifer o ardaloedd yng Nghymru lle mae’r sector preifat yn fach, yn enwedig yng Nghymoedd y de, er enghraifft. Nid yw hon yn sefyllfa ddelfrydol, ac nid yw hon yn sefyllfa y mae Plaid Cymru am ei gweld yn parhau. Ond, er bod hynny’n wir, mae’n bwysig bod cynllun fel hwn yn manteisio ar bob sector posibl er mwyn cyrraedd y bobl ifanc. Dyna pam yr ydym am weld mwy o ystwythder yn y system na’r hyn sy’n cael ei gynnig gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Eluned am ddod â’r ddadl hon gerbron ac yr wyf yn gobeithio’n fawr y bydd y ddadl hon yn rhoi cyfle i’r Gweinidog rannu mwy o syniadau’r Llywodraeth ar y mater.

The final point to make about the Liberal Democrat motion and why we are unable to support it as it stands is that there are a number of areas in Wales where the private sector is small, especially in the south Wales Valleys, for example. This is not an ideal situation, and it is not one that Plaid Cymru wants to see continue. However, while that is the situation, it is important that a scheme like this takes advantage of all possible sectors in order to reach young people. That is why we want to see more flexibility in the system than is included in the Liberal Democrat motion. I am grateful to Eluned for bringing this debate forward, and I very much hope that it gives the Minister an opportunity to share some of the Government’s thinking on the issue.

Gwelliant 3 William Graham

Amendment 3 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn nodi bod cyflogaeth yn y sector preifat yng Nghymru wedi gweld gostyngiad o 3.7% rhwng mis Mehefin 2010 a mis Mehefin 2011, y gostyngiad mwyaf yn y DU.

Notes that private sector employment in Wales has witnessed a decrease of 3.7% between June 2010 and June 2011, the largest decrease in the UK.

Gwelliant 4 William Graham

Amendment 4 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio’n agos gyda chyflogwyr lleol a darparwyr hyfforddiant i ganfod cyfleoedd drwy Gronfa Swyddi Cymru.

Calls on the Welsh Government to work closely with local employers and training providers to identify opportunities through the Welsh Jobs Fund.

Gwelliant 5 William Graham

Amendment 5 William Graham

Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

Add as new point at end of motion:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ddileu ardrethi busnes ar gyfer busnesau bach yng Nghymru sydd â gwerth ardrethol o £12,000 neu lai i helpu i gynyddu effaith Cronfa Swyddi Cymru a helpu i greu swyddi parhaol yn y sector preifat.

Calls on the Welsh Government to scrap business rates for all small businesses in Wales with a rateable value of £12,000 or less to help maximise the impact of the Welsh Jobs Fund and assist with the creation of permanent jobs in the private sector.

Nick Ramsay: I move amendments 3, 4 and 5 in the name of William Graham.

Nick Ramsay: Cynigiaf welliannau 3, 4 a 5 yn enw William Graham.

Having listened to Eluned Parrott’s comments earlier, I think that there are strong links between this debate and the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on entrepreneurialism. She spoke about the need to grow the private sector and the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises in providing training and the stability that young people need. From looking at the motion, I believe that there is good material there. I will be slightly more generous than Simon Thomas from Plaid Cymru—I think that he did it with a smile on his face—in saying that Eluned Parrott did not say anything of sense at all. I think that there is a lot of good stuff in there.

Ar ôl gwrando ar sylwadau Eluned Parrott yn gynharach, credaf y ceir cysylltiadau cryf rhwng y ddadl hon a dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar entrepreneuriaeth. Soniodd am yr angen i dyfu’r sector preifat a phwysigrwydd mentrau bach a chanolig yn darparu hyfforddiant a’r sefydlogrwydd y mae ei angen ar bobl ifanc. O edrych ar y cynnig, credaf fod deunydd da yno. Byddaf ychydig yn fwy hael na Simon Thomas o Blaid Cymru—credaf y gwnaeth hynny â gwên ar ei wyneb—wrth ddweud nad oedd Eluned Parrott yn dweud unrhyw beth o synnwyr o gwbl. Credaf fod llawer o bethau da yno.

Our amendment 3 notes that private sector employment has witnessed a decrease of 3.7 per cent between June 2010 and June 2011. This is a specific, contained area but, nonetheless, there has been a drop in that. I am also concerned about inward investment figures. Eluned Parrott and I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee recently, and we looked at inward investment levels in Wales. As a proportion of inward investment in the UK overall over the last 20 years, Wales seems to be weakening in this regard. Both are areas of concern.

Mae ein gwelliant 3 yn nodi bod cyflogaeth yn y sector preifat wedi gweld gostyngiad o 3.7 y cant rhwng Mehefin 2010 a Mehefin 2011. Mae hwn yn faes penodol ardal sydd â therfynau cwbl bendant, ond serch hynny, bu gostyngiad yn hynny. Yr wyf hefyd yn bryderus ynghylch ffigurau mewnfuddsoddi. Rhoddodd Eluned Parrott a minnau dystiolaeth i’r Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig yn ddiweddar, a buom yn edrych ar lefelau mewnfuddsoddi yng Nghymru. Fel cyfran o’r buddsoddiad o’r tu allan yn y DU yn gyffredinol dros yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf, ymddengys bod Cymru’n gwanhau yn hyn o beth. Mae’r ddau yn feysydd sy’n peri pryder.

Our amendment 4 calls on the Welsh Government to

Mae ein gwelliant 4 yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i

‘work closely with local employers and training providers to identify opportunities through the Welsh Jobs Fund.’

‘weithio’n agos gyda chyflogwyr lleol a darparwyr hyfforddiant i ganfod cyfleoedd drwy Gronfa Swyddi Cymru.’

I hope that this amendment is not too controversial and, in fact, is self-explanatory.

Gobeithiaf nad yw’r gwelliant hwn yn rhy ddadleuol a’i fod, mewn gwirionedd, yn hunanesboniadol.

Our amendment 5 calls on the Welsh Government to

Mae ein gwelliant 5 yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i

‘scrap business rates for all small businesses in Wales with a rateable value of £12,000 or less’.

‘ddileu ardrethi busnes ar gyfer busnesau bach yng Nghymru sydd â gwerth ardrethol o £12,000 neu lai’.

We made this point earlier. I know that, as Welsh Conservatives, we keep coming back to this, and I can see the Minister smiling at me. She is probably thinking ‘What do I need to say to hear the end of this?’ I welcome the Minister’s earlier comments that she will set up a group that will look at the burdens on businesses. I hope that she will follow the policy that we have set out, but we will look closely to see what the group will propose and, hopefully, there will be some alleviation of the burden on businesses.

Gwnaethom y pwynt hwn yn gynharach. Gwn, fel Ceidwadwyr Cymru, ein bod yn dod yn ôl i hyn yn gyson, a gallaf weld y Gweinidog yn gwenu arnaf. Mae’n debyg ei bod hi’n meddwl ‘Beth ddylwn i ei ddweud i glywed diwedd hyn?’ Croesawaf sylwadau’r Gweinidog yn gynharach y bydd yn sefydlu grŵp a fydd yn edrych ar y baich ar fusnesau. Gobeithiaf y bydd hi’n dilyn y polisi a osodwyd gennym, ond byddwn yn edrych yn fanwl i weld beth fydd y grŵp yn ei gynnig, a’r gobaith yw y bydd yn lliniaru rhywfaint ar y baich ar fusnesau.

All this is key to support those young people to whom Eluned Parrott referred. She spoke graphically, probably from experience, given her educational background, about the burdens on young people. It was interesting that she used the term ‘rollercoaster’ and talked about giving false hope. Too often, we tend to think that, if you are given a scheme, you are not looking at what will happen at the end of it when, as she put it, there is a drop-off point. That point was well made. What happens after six months to the young people whom we are seeking to support?

Mae hyn i gyd yn allweddol i gefnogi’r bobl ifanc hynny y cyfeiriodd Eluned Parrott atynt. Siaradodd mewn modd graffig, fwy na thebyg o brofiad, o ystyried ei chefndir addysgol, am y beichiau ar bobl ifanc. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol ei bod wedi defnyddio’r term ‘rollercoaster’ a sôn am roi gobaith ffug. Yn rhy aml, tueddwn i feddwl, os cewch gynllun, nid ydych yn edrych ar beth fydd yn digwydd ar y diwedd pan, fel y soniodd hi, fydd pwynt yn cyrraedd lle bydd gostyngiad. Gwnaethpwyd y pwynt yn dda. Beth sy’n digwydd ar ôl chwe mis i’r bobl ifanc yr ydym yn ceisio eu cefnogi?

I find the Government’s amendment, amendment 1, a bit pedantic—replacing ‘is focused on’ with ‘includes’. I prefer the ‘is focused on’ of the motion. I do not see why you would have an issue with focusing the jobs fund on employment and training opportunities. ‘Focusing’ is stronger than ‘including’; therefore, we will not support that amendment.

Teimlaf fod gwelliant y Llywodraeth, gwelliant 1, ychydig yn bedantig—wrth roi ‘yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd’ yn lle ‘yn cynnwys cyfleoedd’. Mae’n well gennyf y geiriad ‘yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd’ yn y cynnig. Nid wyf yn gweld pam y byddai’n chwith gennych bod y gronfa swyddi yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd cyflogaeth a hyfforddiant. Mae ‘canolbwyntio’ yn gryfach na ‘cynnwys’; felly, ni chefnogwn y gwelliant hwnnw.

I tend to agree with the Liberal Democrats’ comments in relation to the Plaid amendment, amendment 3. I can see what you were getting at, Simon Thomas, when you talked about not simply relying on the private sector, but this debate is focused on the private sector aspect and widening it out to the economic renewal programme muddies the waters. Therefore, we will not support that amendment.

Tueddaf i gytuno â sylwadau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ynghylch gwelliant Plaid, gwelliant 3. Gallaf ddeall yr hyn yr oeddech chi’n ceisio ei ddweud, Simon Thomas, pan soniasoch am beidio â dibynnu ar y sector preifat yn unig, ond mae’r ddadl hon yn canolbwyntio ar yr agwedd sector preifat ac mae ei ehangu i’r rhaglen adnewyddu economaidd yn peri dryswch. Felly, ni chefnogwn y gwelliant hwnnw.

This comes back to stability and providing it in training, education and the jobs market at the end. I hope that the Minister will say something in her closing comments about the Government’s overall aim in terms of linking employment with education. I know that we constantly come back to this debate, and that it is easier said than done—I appreciate that. I know that many things have been said by different parties about how to bridge that gap and make qualifications more meaningful for what young people will do afterwards. However, I do not think that we ever quite get there, but I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, whichever Minister might be responding. I am happy to support the motion.

Daw hyn yn ôl at sefydlogrwydd a’i ddarparu mewn hyfforddiant, addysg ac yn y farchnad swyddi ar y diwedd. Gobeithiaf y bydd y Gweinidog yn dweud rhywbeth yn ei sylwadau wrth gloi ynglŷn â nod cyffredinol y Llywodraeth o ran cysylltu cyflogaeth ag addysg. Gwn y deuwn yn ôl at y ddadl hon yn gyson, a’i fod yn haws dweud na gwneud—yr wyf yn gwerthfawrogi hynny. Gwn y dywedwyd llawer o bethau gan wahanol bleidiau am sut i bontio’r bwlch hwnnw a gwneud cymwysterau yn fwy ystyrlon ar gyfer beth y bydd pobl ifanc yn ei wneud wedyn. Fodd bynnag, nid wyf yn credu ein bod byth yn cyrraedd yno’n gyfan gwbl, ond edrychaf ymlaen at glywed beth sydd gan y Gweinidog i’w ddweud, pa bynnag Weinidog a fydd yn ymateb. Yr wyf yn hapus i gefnogi’r cynnig.

Aled Roberts: The purpose of this motion was to raise questions regarding what the Government will do—other Members have raised the issue of knowing exactly what the Government’s plans are on this issue—in seeking to address our problems with regard to Wales’s economic overreliance on the public sector. It is an issue that most parties acknowledge. It is the case that Wales is more dependent on the public sector than any other part of the UK apart from Northern Ireland, but this is not an attempt by us, taking Simon’s point, to try to suggest that there is no role for the public sector. In my experience in Wrexham, where we had among the highest levels of children and young people not in education or employment some two years ago, it was clear, having spoken to them, that the difficult cases that the council took on, training them and then, ultimately, sending them to apprenticeship schemes were cases that the private sector, as Simon Thomas stated, would probably have sent down the road within four or six weeks. However, this motion suggests that there is also scope for the Government to use its funds to stimulate training approaches in the private sector.

Aled Roberts: Pwrpas y cynnig hwn oedd i godi cwestiynau ynghylch beth fydd y Llywodraeth yn ei wneud—mae Aelodau eraill wedi codi’r mater o wybod beth yn union yw cynlluniau’r Llywodraeth ar y mater hwn—wrth geisio ymdrin â’n problemau o ran gorddibyniaeth economaidd Cymru ar y sector cyhoeddus. Mae’n fater y mae’r rhan fwyaf o bleidiau yn ei gydnabod. Mae’n wir fod Cymru yn fwy dibynnol ar y sector cyhoeddus nag unrhyw ran arall o’r DU ar wahân i Ogledd Iwerddon, ond nid yw hyn yn ymgais gennym ni, wrth gymryd pwynt Simon, i geisio awgrymu nad oes unrhyw rôl ar gyfer y sector cyhoeddus. Yn fy mhrofiad i yn Wrecsam, lle y cawsom ymhlith y lefelau uchaf o blant a phobl ifanc nad ydynt mewn addysg neu gyflogaeth ddwy flynedd yn ôl, yr oedd yn amlwg, wedi siarad â hwy, bod yr achosion anodd hynny yr ymgymerodd y cyngor â hwy, yn eu hyfforddi ac wedyn, yn y pen draw, eu hanfon i gynlluniau prentisiaeth yn achosion y byddai’r sector preifat, fel y dywedodd Simon Thomas, fwy na thebyg wedi eu anfon i lawr y ffordd o fewn pedair i chwe wythnos. Fodd bynnag, mae’r cynnig hwn yn awgrymu bod lle hefyd i’r Llywodraeth i ddefnyddio ei chronfeydd i ysgogi dulliau hyfforddi yn y sector preifat.

Simon Thomas: I thank Aled Roberts for taking my intervention. I agree with him on both points: we need to strengthen the private sector in Wales—that should be the aim of any decent Government—and we need to ensure that the training opportunities available allow people to move into the private sector or be trained in the private sector. I just suggest to him that this particular programme is not the vehicle for getting the Government to change that. That is why we have tried to link this to the economic renewal programme. We need to have a wider approach to the private sector to get these things moving.

Simon Thomas: Diolchaf i Aled Roberts am gymryd fy ymyriad. Cytunaf ag ef ar y ddau bwynt: mae angen inni gryfhau’r sector preifat yng Nghymru—hwnnw a ddylai fod yn nod i unrhyw Lywodraeth weddus—ac mae angen inni sicrhau bod y cyfleoedd hyfforddi sydd ar gael yn caniatáu pobl i symud i’r sector preifat neu i gael eu hyfforddi yn y sector preifat. Awgrymaf iddo nad y rhaglen benodol hon yw’r cyfrwng i gael y Llywodraeth i newid hynny. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi ceisio cysylltu hwn â rhaglen adnewyddu’r economi. Mae arnom angen dull ehangach o ymdrin â’r sector preifat i gael y pethau hyn yn symud.

Aled Roberts: The problem with widening this out to the economic renewal programme is that there is a need to focus on those employers throughout all sectors who are able to give the best opportunities for training.

Aled Roberts: Y broblem gydag ehangu hyn i raglen adnewyddu’r economi yw bod angen canolbwyntio ar y cyflogwyr hynny ym mhob sector sy’n gallu rhoi’r cyfleoedd gorau ar gyfer hyfforddiant.

Leighton Andrews: When he was the leader of Wrexham County Borough Council, did the Member feel that the Future Jobs fund programme that was run by his council in co-operation with Groundwork was useful?

Leighton Andrews: Pan oedd yn arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam, a oedd yr Aelod yn teimlo bod rhaglen cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol a oedd yn cael ei rhedeg gan ei gyngor mewn cydweithrediad â Groundwork yn ddefnyddiol?

Aled Roberts: Yes, I did, and I appreciate the point that you are trying to make with regard to the decision that has been taken by the UK Government. However, we have to acknowledge, from our experience in Wrexham, that after the initial six-month programme, there was a high percentage of youngsters who returned to benefits. That is the difficulty. We are not questioning whether the Government needs to intervene—we are questioning whether the Future Jobs fund was the best mechanism, given our experience.

Aled Roberts: Oeddwn, yr oeddwn i, a gwerthfawrogaf y pwynt yr ydych yn ceisio ei wneud o ran y penderfyniad a gymerwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU. Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod, o’n profiad yn Wrecsam, ar ôl y rhaglen chwe mis cychwynnol, cafwyd canran uchel o bobl ifanc sy’n dychwelyd i fudd-daliadau. Dyna’r anhawster. Nid ydym yn cwestiynu a oes angen i’r Llywodraeth ymyrryd—yr ydym yn cwestiynu ai cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol oedd y dull gorau, o gofio ein profiad.

I would also like to deal with Simon Thomas’s point with regard to European funding. It is my understanding that this issue was raised in discussions with the Work and Pensions Committee at Westminster, and the evidence given there by civil servants was that those issues were not insurmountable. In fact, they adduced evidence from other European nations to suggest that, although our civil servants said that there were state aid problems, these facilities were used in other countries.

Hoffwn hefyd ymdrin â phwynt Simon Thomas o ran arian Ewropeaidd. Fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod y mater hwn wedi’i godi mewn trafodaethau gyda’r Pwyllgor Gwaith a Phensiynau yn San Steffan, a’r dystiolaeth a roddwyd yno gan weision sifil oedd nad oedd y materion hynny’n anorchfygol. Yn wir, rhoddasant dystiolaeth o wledydd Ewropeaidd eraill i awgrymu, er bod ein gweision sifil yn dweud y bu problemau cymorth gwladol, bod y cyfleusterau hyn wedi cael eu defnyddio mewn gwledydd eraill.

We obviously have decreasing budgets, and we know that the approach that we have developed up to now, whereby we have sustained investment in the public sector as far as Wales is concerned, will not be an approach that we can adopt within the term of this Assembly. Yet we have a situation where youth unemployment in Wales is at its highest for a generation. Currently, 15.5 per cent of our youngsters between the ages of 16 and 24 are out of work. We have to do something to help them. Many of them will be stuck in a vicious cycle of having no job experience and will, therefore, be at a disadvantage in finding new employment.

Mae’n amlwg bod gennym gyllidebau sy’n lleihau, a gwyddom nad yw’r dull o weithredu yr ydym wedi ei ddatblygu hyd yn hyn, lle’r ydym wedi cynnal buddsoddiad yn y sector cyhoeddus o safbwynt Cymru, yn ddull y gallwn ei fabwysiadu o fewn tymor y Cynulliad hwn. Eto i gyd, mae gennym sefyllfa lle mae diweithdra ymysg pobl ifanc yng Nghymru ar ei huchaf ers cenhedlaeth. Ar hyn o bryd, mae 15.5 y cant o’n pobl ifanc rhwng 16 a 24 yn ddi-waith. Rhaid inni wneud rhywbeth i’w helpu. Bydd llawer ohonynt yn gaeth mewn cylch dieflig heb unrhyw brofiad gwaith a byddant, felly, o dan anfantais yn dod o hyd i gyflogaeth newydd.

We cannot support the Plaid amendment because of the point that I made with regard to looking to all sectors rather than specific ones to provide training opportunities—although we support the economic renewal programme. The Government amendment, as the Conservative speakers suggested, would remove a key part of our motion, which is to focus on jobs in the private sector. We felt that there was a need to learn from some of the issues with the Future Jobs fund, on which there is clear evidence.

Ni allwn gefnogi gwelliant Plaid Cymru oherwydd y pwynt a wneuthum am edrych i bob sector yn hytrach na rhai penodol i ddarparu cyfleoedd hyfforddi—er y cefnogwn y rhaglen adnewyddu economaidd. Byddai gwelliant y Llywodraeth, fel yr awgrymwyd gan siaradwyr Ceidwadol, yn dileu rhan allweddol ein cynnig, sef canolbwyntio ar swyddi yn y sector preifat. Teimlem fod angen dysgu o rai o’r materion gyda chronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, y ceir tystiolaeth glir arni.

It is far too easy for the Government to rely for the creation of training opportunities on the public sector, but it will only provide a limited benefit to the Welsh economy. It is because of that that we will support two of the Conservative amendments. The first that we will support is a matter of fact as far as I am concerned: Welsh private sector employment has had the biggest decrease over the last few years, which reinforces our point that the private sector needs to be strengthened. The second Conservative amendment that we support asks the Government to work closely with employers and training providers to identify opportunities.

Mae’n llawer yn rhy hawdd i’r Llywodraeth i ddibynnu ar y sector cyhoeddus i greu cyfleoedd hyfforddi, ond dim ond budd cyfyngedig y bydd hynny yn ei ddarparu i economi Cymru. Oherwydd hynny y byddwn yn cefnogi dau o welliannau’r Ceidwadwyr. Mater o ffaith yw’r cyntaf y byddwn yn ei gefnogi o’m safbwynt i: mae cyflogaeth sector preifat yng Nghymru wedi gweld y gostyngiad mwyaf dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, sy’n atgyfnerthu’n pwynt bod angen cryfhau’r sector preifat. Mae’r ail welliant Ceidwadol a gefnogwn yn gofyn i’r Llywodraeth i gydweithio’n agos â chyflogwyr a darparwyr hyfforddiant i adnabod cyfleoedd.

Mick Antoniw: When I hear the explanation for the motion, and some of the comments that have been made, the cheek of old Nick comes to mind. It is worth reminding ourselves of the shameful role that the Lib Dems have played in denying thousands of young men and women the opportunity to experience paid work. In an interview before the general election of 2010, Vince Cable said that the Lib Dems would

Mick Antoniw: Pan glywaf yr esboniad am y cynnig, a rhai o’r sylwadau sydd wedi’u gwneud, mae hyfdra’r gŵr drwg yn dod i’r meddwl. Mae’n werth atgoffa ein hunain o’r rôl gywilyddus y mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi ei chwarae wrth wadu miloedd o ddynion a merched ifanc y cyfle i gael profiad gwaith am dâl. Mewn cyfweliad cyn etholiad cyffredinol 2010, dywedodd Vince Cable y byddai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn

‘make young people a top priority. We’ll act quickly to support those out of work learn new skills and find a new job…And we’ll make going to university affordable for all’.

gwneud pobl ifanc yn flaenoriaeth uchaf. Byddwn yn gweithredu’n gyflym i gefnogi’r rhai sy’n ddi-waith i ddysgu sgiliau newydd a dod o hyd i swydd newydd...A byddwn yn gwneud mynd i brifysgol yn fforddiadwy i bawb.

I will not deal with the last point, but almost the first thing that they did in Government was to link with the Tories to abolish a £1 billion fund that had provided 70,000 young people, including almost 10,000 in Wales, with job opportunities. If that was not enough, during the National Assembly for Wales elections, the Member, in a speech in a BBC debate in Wrexham, had the audacity to describe the fund as a cheap quick fix. I agree with the statement made by the Work and Pensions Committee of the House of Commons in 2010, which was that the UK Government’s abolition of the Future Jobs fund would consign thousands of young people to long-term unemployment. As one charity said, it was yet another blow to the hopes and prospects of the most vulnerable young people.

Ni wnaf ymdrin â’r pwynt olaf, ond bron y peth cyntaf a wnaethant mewn Llywodraeth oedd cysylltu gyda’r Torïaid i ddiddymu cronfa £1 biliwn a wnaeth ddarparu cyfleoedd swyddi i 70,000 o bobl ifanc, gan gynnwys bron 10,000 yng Nghymru. Os nad oedd hynny’n ddigon, yn ystod etholiadau Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, mewn araith mewn dadl BBC yn Wrecsam, roedd gan yr Aelod yr hyfdra i ddisgrifio’r gronfa fel ateb cyflym a rhad. Cytunaf â’r datganiad a wnaed gan Bwyllgor Gwaith a Phensiynau Tŷ’r Cyffredin yn 2010, sef y byddai diddymu cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol Llywodraeth y DU yn anfon miloedd o bobl ifanc i ddiweithdra hirdymor. Fel y dywedodd un elusen, roedd yn ergyd arall i obeithion a rhagolygon y bobl ifanc sydd fwyaf agored i niwed.

5.30 p.m.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Would you not accept that under the previous Labour Government there was a 40 per cent increase in youth unemployment? For you to paint the picture that everything lies at the door of this Westminster Government is wrong.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Oni fyddech yn derbyn, dan y Llywodraeth Lafur flaenorol, bod cynnydd o 40 y cant mewn diweithdra ymhlith pobl ifanc? Mae’n anghywir i chi beintio’r darlun fod popeth yn gorwedd wrth ddrws y Llywodraeth San Steffan bresennol.

Mick Antoniw: I will accept that not only have you introduced a new scheme that only puts in a third of what the previous Government was putting in, but we have record youth unemployment figures the likes of which have not been known since the Thatcher Government.

Mick Antoniw: Derbyniaf eich bod nid yn unig wedi cyflwyno cynllun newydd sy’n rhoi i mewn dim ond un rhan o dair o’r hyn yr oedd y Llywodraeth flaenorol yn rhoi i mewn, ond mae gennym ffigurau diweithdra ymhlith pobl ifanc nas gwelwyd eu tebyg ers Llywodraeth Thatcher.

It therefore ill behoves the Liberal Democrats and the Tories to call upon us to ensure that these jobs are focused in the private sector. Quite frankly, you just do not get it. Young people do not care which sectors the jobs are in, they just want jobs.

Felly, mae’n gwbl amhriodol i’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Torïaid i alw arnom i sicrhau bod y swyddi hyn yn cael eu canolbwyntio yn y sector preifat. A dweud y gwir, nid ydych yn deall o gwbl. Nid yw pobl ifanc yn poeni pa sectorau mae’r swyddi ynddynt, maent eisiau swyddi.

Eluned Parrott: In my previous profession, I worked with a lot of unemployed young people, through programmes that, because they are publicly funded, have a start point and, sadly, an endpoint. At the endpoint, those young people are pitched off the end of the rollercoaster with absolutely nothing to look forward to. I have worked with those young people and I know that that is true. I am speaking from experience.

Eluned Parrott: Yn fy mhroffesiwn blaenorol, yr oeddwn yn gweithio gyda llawer o bobl ifanc di-waith, drwy raglenni sydd, oherwydd eu bod yn cael eu hariannu’n gyhoeddus, â man cychwyn ac, yn anffodus, man gorffen. Yn y man gorffen, mae’r bobl ifanc hynny yn cael eu taflu oddi ar y daith wib gyda dim byd o gwbl i edrych ymlaen ato. Rwyf wedi gweithio gyda’r bobl ifanc hynny a gwn fod hynny’n wir. Yr wyf yn siarad o brofiad.

Mick Antoniw: I met a lot of young people just after the abolition of the Future Jobs fund was announced. They could not understand the logic behind it. There were young people being lined up for jobs in the private or public sectors who were suddenly told that those opportunities had gone. There seemed to them no sense in it being abolished at that time. I do not understand the idea that the public sector should be excluded; I think that the problem is that you have been hanging around the Tories too long.

Mick Antoniw: Cyfarfûm â llawer o bobl ifanc ychydig ar ôl i ddiddymiad cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol gael ei gyhoeddi. Nid oeddent yn gallu deall y rhesymeg y tu ôl iddo. Roedd pobl ifanc a oedd yn cael eu paratoi ar gyfer swyddi yn y sectorau preifat neu gyhoeddus yn sydyn yn cael gwybod bod y cyfleoedd hynny wedi mynd. Ymddengys nad oedd unrhyw synnwyr iddo gael ei ddiddymu ar y pryd. Nid wyf yn deall y syniad y dylai’r sector cyhoeddus gael ei wahardd; rwy’n meddwl mai’r broblem yw eich bod wedi bod yn hongian o gwmpas y Torïaid yn rhy hir.

Welsh Labour has pledged to set up a Welsh jobs fund. I would like it to be more and for longer, because I think that 12 months would be a better period for it. However, when you have had £2 billion stolen from your budget, you must be realistic. If there is one thing that is true, it is that the Liberal Democrats break their promises. Welsh Labour keeps its promises.

Mae Llafur Cymru wedi addo sefydlu cronfa swyddi Cymru. Hoffwn iddo fod yn fwy ac am fwy o amser, oherwydd credaf y byddai 12 mis yn gyfnod gwell ar ei gyfer. Fodd bynnag, pan mae £2 biliwn wedi cael ei ddwyn o’ch cyllideb, mae’n rhaid i chi fod yn realistig. Os oes un peth sy’n wir, mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn torri’u haddewidion. Mae Llafur Cymru yn cadw ei addewidion.

William Powell: It is a great privilege to take part in this important and particularly interactive debate this afternoon. The business community in Wales is frequently quoted as expressing concern about the lack of skilled candidates in the job market. The Confederation of British Industry recently released a publication that outlines what Britain as a whole needs to do to address the skills gap between the UK, other members of the European Union and countries further afield. Indeed, the CBI states that, while there is limited Government funding available, its members are keen and willing to take on the challenge of providing more skills themselves, rather than rely on Government finance.

William Powell: Mae’n fraint fawr i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl bwysig ac arbennig o ryngweithiol hon y prynhawn yma. Mae’r gymuned fusnes yng Nghymru yn cael ei ddyfynnu yn aml yn mynegi pryder am y diffyg ymgeiswyr medrus yn y farchnad swyddi. Yn ddiweddar, ryddhaodd Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yn gyhoeddiad sy’n amlinellu beth mae angen i Brydain yn ei gyfanrwydd ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â’r bwlch sgiliau rhwng y Deyrnas Unedig, aelodau eraill o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a gwledydd ymhellach i ffwrdd. Yn wir, mae’r CBI yn nodi, er bod cyllid cyfyngedig y Llywodraeth ar gael, mae ei aelodau yn awyddus ac yn barod i ymgymryd â’r her o ddarparu mwy o sgiliau eu hunain, yn hytrach na dibynnu ar gyllid y Llywodraeth.

Another particularly worrying development that came to my attention just yesterday, when I met Ceri James of CiLT Cymru and colleagues here in the Assembly, was the fall-off in the study of modern languages in Wales. Welsh Joint Education Committee entries for languages this year have fallen by 10 per cent, which will, in the longer term, have dire consequences for employability in the future. The truth is, however, that it is in the employer’s interest to provide high-quality training, just as it is in the employee’s interest to receive it. British Telecom has reported that apprentices who go through its training programmes are 7.5 per cent more productive than those who do not. For BT, trained apprentices generate an additional profit of £1,300 on average for the company. The Welsh Government should tap into the business community’s willingness to provide additional training and use this goodwill as the foundation for a future Welsh jobs fund.

Datblygiad arbennig o bryderus arall a ddaeth i fy sylw dim ond ddoe, pan wnes i gyfarfod Ceri James o CiLT Cymru a chydweithwyr yma yn y Cynulliad, oedd y cwymp yn yr astudiaeth o ieithoedd modern yng Nghymru. Mae ceisiadau Cyd-bwyllgor Addysg Cymru ar gyfer ieithoedd eleni wedi gostwng o 10 y cant, a fydd, yn y tymor hwy, yn arwain at ganlyniadau enbyd ar gyfer cyflogadwyedd yn y dyfodol. Y gwir yw, fodd bynnag, ei bod er budd y cyflogwr i ddarparu hyfforddiant o ansawdd uchel, yn union fel y mae er lles y gweithiwr i’w dderbyn. Mae British Telecom wedi adrodd bod prentisiaid sy’n mynd drwy ei raglenni hyfforddiant yn 7.5 y cant yn fwy cynhyrchiol na’r rhai nad ydynt yn gwneud. Ar gyfer BT, mae prentisiaid sydd wedi’u hyfforddi yn creu elw ychwanegol o £1,300 ar gyfartaledd ar gyfer y cwmni. Dylai Llywodraeth Cymru fanteisio ar barodrwydd y gymuned fusnes i ddarparu hyfforddiant ychwanegol a defnyddio’r ewyllys da hwn fel sylfaen ar gyfer cronfa swyddi’r dyfodol i Gymru.

The Welsh Government needs to ensure that, when the fund is established, it delivers jobs and training throughout Wales. In order to meet its target of 4,000 jobs, it would be tempting to negotiate large contracts with employers in the larger cities and towns. However, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action has shown that it would be more beneficial to place smaller numbers of trainees together, rather than have them in large cohorts. The analysis of the Future Jobs fund showed that those organisations with smaller numbers of trainees were better at keeping the job position open afterwards. That is the point that has been made repeatedly by my colleague: it is the future prospect of employment that is critical to the success of this. We also need to draw on the lessons that have been learned recently from the Big Lottery Fund’s Village SOS active learning campaign to encourage local enterprise and training. Some of you may have seen the recent success stories across mid and west Wales in Myddfai and in Talgarth, in my own back yard. We need to address this and build on a partnership approach.

Mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru sicrhau, pan fydd y gronfa yn cael ei sefydlu, ei fod yn darparu swyddi a hyfforddiant ledled Cymru. Er mwyn cyrraedd ei darged o 4,000 o swyddi, byddai’n demtasiwn i gyd-drafod contractau mawr gyda chyflogwyr yn y dinasoedd a’r trefi mwy. Fodd bynnag, mae Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru wedi dangos y byddai’n fwy buddiol i roi niferoedd llai o hyfforddeion at ei gilydd, yn hytrach nag eu cael mewn carfannau mawr. Mae dadansoddiad cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yn dangos bod y sefydliadau hynny sydd â niferoedd llai o hyfforddeion yn well am gadw’r safle ar agor am swydd ar ôl hynny. Dyna’r pwynt sydd wedi’i wneud dro ar ôl tro gan fy nghyd-Aelod: mai’r gobaith o gyflogaeth yn y dyfodol sydd yn hanfodol i lwyddiant hyn. Mae angen inni hefyd fanteisio ar y gwersi a ddysgwyd yn ddiweddar o ymgyrch dysgu gweithredol Pentref SOS y Gronfa Loteri Fawr i annog menter a hyfforddi lleol. Efallai bod rhai ohonoch wedi gweld y llwyddiannau diweddar ar draws canolbarth a gorllewin Cymru ym Myddfai ac yn Nhalgarth, yn fy iard gefn innau. Mae angen i ni fynd i’r afael â hyn ac adeiladu ar ddull partneriaeth.

There is, however, a dimension that the Government needs to bear in mind when it develops a Welsh Future Jobs fund. The Welsh economy is predominantly made up of smaller businesses—that point was addressed earlier by the Minister. We need to ensure that those smaller businesses are able to fully play their part, rather than the fund relying on large contracts with county councils and other public sector organisations. The added benefit of using smaller business is that those businesses are spread across the country, and therefore the benefit will accrue to the whole country, rather than to just the more urban areas.

Mae yna, fodd bynnag, ddimensiwn y mae angen i’r Llywodraeth gadw mewn cof wrth ddatblygu cronfa swyddi’r dyfodol i Gymru. Busnesau bach yn bennaf yw economi Cymru—ymdriniwyd â’r pwynt hwnnw yn gynharach gan y Gweinidog. Mae angen i ni sicrhau bod y busnesau llai hynny yn gallu chwarae eu rhan yn llawn, yn hytrach na’r gronfa yn dibynnu ar gontractau mawr gyda chynghorau sir a chyrff eraill yn y sector cyhoeddus. Y fantais ychwanegol o ddefnyddio busnes bach yw bod y busnesau hynny’n cael eu gwasgaru ar draws y wlad, ac felly bydd y budd-dal yn cronni i’r wlad gyfan, yn hytrach na dim ond yr ardaloedd mwy trefol.

Mark Isherwood: The problems facing Wales are complex and deep rooted. We have heard reference to youth unemployment, which is at record levels and has been rising since 2005. We know that economic inactivity in Wales is such that, prior to the recession, one in three working-age adults were not in work—double the UK rate. We know from Careers Wales figures, published last year, that there is the good news that more young people were staying on in education or training after the age of 16. However, the fall-off rate between the ages of 16 and 18 increased and Wales had the highest proportion of 18 to 24-year olds not in education, employment or training of any UK nation. So, the problems are complex and deep rooted.

Mark Isherwood: Mae’r problemau sy’n wynebu Cymru yn gymhleth ac wedi’u gwreiddio’n ddwfn. Yr ydym wedi clywed cyfeirio at ddiweithdra ymhlith pobl ifanc, sydd yn uwch nag erioed ac mae wedi bod yn codi ers 2005. Rydym yn gwybod bod anweithgarwch economaidd yng Nghymru yn golygu, cyn y dirwasgiad, bod un o bob tri oedolyn o oedran gweithio ddim mewn gwaith—dwbl cyfradd y DU. Gwyddom o ffigurau Gyrfa Cymru, a gyhoeddwyd y llynedd, bod yna newyddion da bod mwy o bobl ifanc yn aros ymlaen mewn addysg neu hyfforddiant ar ôl 16 oed. Fodd bynnag, mae’r gyfradd disgyn i ffwrdd rhwng 16 a 18 oed yn cynyddu a Chymru oedd â’r gyfran uchaf o bobl ifanc 18 i 24 oed nad ydynt mewn addysg, cyflogaeth neu hyfforddiant o unrhyw genedl yn y DU. Felly, mae’r problemau yn gymhleth ac wedi’u gwreiddio’n ddwfn.

I want to talk about the third sector, primarily. The Wales Council for Voluntary Action’s experience of delivering skills and employment projects is that many of the people most disconnected from employment would not be ready to enter the workplace without a first-stage intervention. Often, this is where third sector specialisms lie, and the sector has expertise in dealing with the people who are hardest to engage and who often have been unemployed for significant periods. The design of the new Welsh jobs fund programme must make provision for these at-risk groups and the third sector could, and should, become a key strategic partner in designing and helping to deliver positive job outcomes for young and older people in Wales through the new programme. The sector has experience in building confidence and in developing the work and life skills of people who need support and it has a track record of delivering employment projects successfully. For example, under the previous round of European structural funds, 64 per cent of participants on the intermediate labour market project went into full-time, part-time or self-employment, with 89 per cent of participants gaining an NVQ or equivalent. These participants came from a range of different economically inactive groups. So, third sector professionalism has proven success in enabling participants to have extended support in employment, leading to more sustainable jobs outcomes and a more lasting experience and benefit for participants, as well as employers. The Welsh Government should, therefore, ensure that its Welsh jobs fund uses the expertise of the third sector in engaging with the hardest to engage, providing them with the motivation and skills needed if we are to rebalance the Welsh economy by growing the private and third sectors. However, the Welsh Government must also ensure that its jobs fund complements rather than duplicates the UK Government’s £5 billion work programme, which is itself a partnership with providers from across the public, private and third sectors, including social enterprises.

Yr wyf am siarad am y trydydd sector, yn bennaf. Profiad Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru o gyflenwi sgiliau a phrosiectau cyflogaeth yw na fyddai llawer o’r bobl sydd wedi’u datgysylltu fwyaf o gyflogaeth yn barod i fynd i mewn i’r gweithle heb ymyrraeth gam cyntaf. Yn aml, dyma le mae arbenigedd y trydydd sector, ac mae gan y sector arbenigedd wrth ymdrin â’r bobl sydd anoddaf i ymgysylltu â hwy ac sydd yn aml wedi bod yn ddi-waith am gyfnodau sylweddol. Mae’n rhaid i’r rhaglen cronfa swyddi Cymreig newydd cynnig darpariaeth ar gyfer y grwpiau sydd mewn perygl a gallai, a dylai’r trydydd sector, ddod yn bartner strategol allweddol wrth ddylunio a helpu i gyflawni canlyniadau swyddi cadarnhaol i bobl ifanc a phobl hŷn yng Nghymru drwy raglen newydd. Mae gan y sector brofiad mewn adeiladu hyder a datblygu sgiliau gwaith a bywyd pobl sydd angen cefnogaeth ac mae ganddo hanes o gyflawni prosiectau cyflogaeth yn llwyddiannus. Er enghraifft, o dan y rownd flaenorol o gronfeydd strwythurol Ewropeaidd, aeth 64 y cant o gyfranogwyr oedd yn rhan o’r prosiect marchnad lafur canolradd i mewn i waith amser llawn, rhan-amser neu hunangyflogaeth, gydag 89 y cant o gyfranogwyr yn ennill NVQ neu gymhwyster cyfatebol. Daeth y cyfranogwyr o ystod o wahanol grwpiau economaidd anweithgar. Felly, mae proffesiynoldeb y trydydd sector wedi profi llwyddiant wrth alluogi cyfranogwyr i gael cymorth estynedig mewn cyflogaeth, gan arwain at ganlyniadau mwy cynaliadwy o ran swyddi a phrofiad mwy parhaol a buddiol i gyfranogwyr, yn ogystal â chyflogwyr. Dylai Llywodraeth Cymru, felly, sicrhau bod ei chronfa swyddi Cymru yn defnyddio arbenigedd y trydydd sector o ran ymgysylltu â’r anoddaf i’w hymgysylltu, gan roi’r cymhelliant a’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen os ydym am ail-gydbwyso economi Cymru drwy dyfu’r sector preifat a’r trydydd sector. Fodd bynnag, rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru hefyd sicrhau bod ei chronfa swyddi yn ategu yn hytrach na dyblygu rhaglen waith £5 biliwn Llywodraeth y DU, sy’n bartneriaeth gyda darparwyr o’r sectorau cyhoeddus, preifat a’r trydydd sector, gan gynnwys mentrau cymdeithasol.

Keith Davies: Bois bach, onid yw pethau’n gymhleth y prynhawn yma? Gwelaf y Ceidwadwyr yn ffraeo ymysg ei gilydd. Yr oeddwn yn teimlo bod Mark yn siarad yn erbyn cynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, oherwydd yr hyn a ddywed eu cynnig yw:

Keith Davies: Well, things are complicated this afternoon, are they not? I see the Conservatives argue among themselves. I felt that Mark was speaking against the Liberal Democrat motion, because the motion says:

‘focused on employment and training opportunities in the private sector’.

‘yn canolbwyntio ar gyfleoedd hyfforddi a chyflogaeth yn y sector preifat’.

Nid yw’n dweud dim am y sector gwirfoddol na’r sector cyhoeddus, ond dof yn ôl at hynny. Dywedodd Eluned Parrott fod problemau wedi bod o ran cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Yr ydym yn derbyn bod rhai problemau wedi bod, ond, fel y dywedodd Mick Antoniw, yr oedd yn gronfa arbennig o dda, a oedd yn creu swyddi i’r bobl a oedd eu hangen, ond a oedd yn cael ei beirniadu. A wyddech chi, yn ôl y ddogfen sydd gennyf, o’r cwmnïau a oedd ynghlwm wrth y gronfa yn genedlaethol,

It says nothing about the voluntary sector or the public sector, but I will return to that point. Eluned Parrott said that there had been problems with the Future Jobs fund. We accept that there were some problems, but, as Mick Antoniw said, it was an excellent fund, creating jobs for those who needed them, but which was criticised. Did you know that, according to the document that I have, of the companies that were linked to the fund nationally,

ninety per cent of the contracts went to private companies and large corporations?

aeth naw deg y cant o’r contractau i gwmnïau preifat a chorfforaethau mawr?

Dyna lle yr aeth y gwaith. Mae’r Work Foundation wedi cyhoeddi adroddiad ar gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, gan ddweud yr hyn a ganlyn:

That is where the work went. The Work Foundation has published a report on the Future Jobs fund, which says that

‘the programme will do little to improve employment opportunities for people living in economically weaker areas. It will be difficult for private contractors to deliver the programme at a profit in certain parts of Scotland, Wales and London, thus disincentivising activity in these areas.’

ni fydd y rhaglen yn gwneud llawer i wella cyfleoedd cyflogaeth i bobl sy’n byw mewn ardaloedd sy’n wannach yn economaidd. Bydd yn anodd i gontractwyr preifat i gyflwyno’r rhaglen a gwneud elw mewn rhai rhannau o’r Alban, Cymru a Llundain, a thrwy hynny yn anghymeradwyo gweithgarwch yn y meysydd hyn.

Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent are both listed in the top 10 areas of the UK where it is likely to be difficult for the work programme to be delivered profitably.

Mae Merthyr Tudful a Blaenau Gwent yn cael eu rhestru yn 10 maes uchaf y DU lle mae’n debygol o fod yn anodd i’r rhaglen waith gael ei chyflawni yn broffidiol.

Felly, ni fydd y sector preifat yn gweithio gyda’r plant sy’n dioddef fwyaf. Dywedodd Simon Thomas yn gynharach fod mwy o blant nad ydynt mewn gwaith, addysg na hyfforddiant nag ers degawd, a chytunaf. Beth yw pwrpas y gronfa? Ei phwrpas yw creu swyddi a hyfforddiant i’n pobl ifanc, ac nid creu swyddi i’r sector preifat. Dywedodd Mark Isherwood, a chytunaf â nifer o bethau a ddywedodd—

Therefore, the private sector is not going to be able to work with the children who need this most. Simon Thomas said earlier that there are more children in the NEET sector that there have been for a decade, and I agree with that. What is the purpose of the fund? Its purpose is to create jobs and provide training for our young people, and not to create jobs for the private sector. As was said by Mark Isherwood, and I agree with many things that he said—

Simon Thomas: A yw Keith Davies yn gwybod bod 2,000 o elusennau wedi ysgrifennu at Clegg, Cameron a Brown ychydig cyn yr etholiad cyffredinol diwethaf i’w hannog i gadw cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, ac ysgrifennodd Clegg yn ôl atynt gan addo y byddai’n cadw’r gronfa?

Simon Thomas: Is Keith Davies aware that 2,000 charities wrote to Clegg, Cameron and Brown just before the last general election enouraging them to keep the Future Jobs fund and Clegg wrote back pledging that he would retain the fund?

Keith Davies: Dyna fe. Maent yn newid ar bob peth. Dywedodd Thatcher, ‘This lady’s not for turning’, ond maent yn troi ar bob cyfle.

Keith Davies: Well, they are changing their minds on everything. Thatcher said, ‘This lady’s not for turning’, but they are turning all over the place.

Gan ddychwelyd at y sector gwirfoddol, yr oeddwn yn darllen ac yn paratoi at y ddadl hon, a darllenais fod 30 o wahanol asiantau gwirfoddol yng Nghymru. Mae’r cynnig yn eu gwrthwynebu yn gyfan gwbl. Nhw a fydd yn cyrraedd at y bobl sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd. Byddai’n ofnadwy pe baem yn eu hanwybyddu’n llwyr. Dywedodd rhywun y prynhawn yma—ni chofiaf pwy—fod oddeutu 30 y cant o’r swyddi yng Nghymru yn y sector cyhoeddus. Os dowch â’r sector cyhoeddus a’r sector gwirfoddol at ei gilydd, nhw a fydd yn cynnig y cyfleoedd i’n pobl ifanc, ac nid y sector preifat. Dyna pam yr wyf yn gwrthwynebu’r cynnig.

If we go back to the voluntary sector, in preparation for this debate, I read that there are 30 different voluntary organisations in Wales. The motion ignores them completely. It is those organisations that will reach those who are difficult to reach. It would be a terrible thing if we were to ignore them completely. Someone said this afternoon—I cannot remember who—that about 30 per cent of the jobs in Wales are in the public sector. If you bring the public sector and the voluntary sector together, they will provide opportunities for our young people, not the private sector. That is why I oppose the motion.

Ann Jones: Pinned on the wall in my office is a copy of an interview with Matthew Dawe, a young man from Prestatyn who is now in full-time employment thanks to the Future Jobs fund. Matthew said that the Future Jobs fund

Ann Jones: Ar y wal yn fy swyddfa mae copi o gyfweliad gyda Matthew Dawe, dyn ifanc o Brestatyn sydd bellach mewn cyflogaeth amser llawn oherwydd cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Dywedodd Matthew fod cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol

‘had a big impact on my life. My confidence is much better and I feel motivated again to have a better lifestyle and make progress in work’.

wedi cael effaith fawr ar fy mywyd. Mae fy hyder yn llawer gwell ac yr wyf yn teimlo cymhelliant eto i gael ffordd o fyw gwell a gwneud cynnydd o ran gwaith.

That is just one example, and, from a quick scan of the social networks, you can see more testimonies to that fund. I cannot believe that the Tories and the Lib Dems have tried to pin the Welsh Government down on this when it is they at Westminster who abolished the Future Jobs fund, denying opportunities to more and more young people, who can ill-afford to be left in that situation. I will move on from the Lib Dems, because we do not have time.

Dyna un enghraifft yn unig, ac, os edrychwch yn gyflym ar rwydweithiau cymdeithasol, gallwch weld mwy o dystiolaethau i’r gronfa honno. Ni allaf gredu bod y Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi ceisio rhoi pwysau ar Lywodraeth Cymru o ran hyn pan mai nhw yn San Steffan a ddiddymodd gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, gan dynnu yn ôl cyfleoedd i fwy a mwy o bobl ifanc, na allant fforddio cael eu gadael yn y sefyllfa honno. Yr wyf am symud ymlaen o’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, oherwydd nid oes gennym amser.

5.45 p.m.

I want to talk about what I expect to see the Welsh Government doing. Of course we want to see private companies taking on people through the Welsh jobs fund. That has happened under the Future Jobs fund, because G. Purchase Construction Ltd has already helped 22-year-old Lee from Rhyl to start to turn his life around. So, it was happening, but in Westminster, the Tories and the Lib Dems cut the Future Jobs fund and the lifeline for those very young people. Like many others, that company was keen to get involved, but I would be very wary of a strict code that would coerce companies that are not interested in going into the Welsh jobs fund because they are in the private sector. That would damage the quality of the placement and the young people’s future. Furthermore, the employability of the candidates will mean that private companies in Wales will find it easier to fill their vacancies in future.

Yr wyf am siarad am yr hyn yr wyf yn disgwyl gweld Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud. Wrth gwrs ein bod eisiau gweld cwmnïau preifat yn cyflogi pobl drwy gronfa swyddi Cymru. Mae hynny wedi digwydd o dan gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, oherwydd mae cwmni o’r enw G. Purchase Construction Cyf eisoes wedi helpu Lee, 22 mlwydd oed, o’r Rhyl, i ddechrau troi ei fywyd o amgylch. Felly, yr oedd yn digwydd, ond yn San Steffan, torrodd y Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol a’r achubiaeth i bobl ifanc iawn hynny. Fel llawer eraill, yr oedd y cwmni hwnnw yn awyddus i gymryd rhan, ond byddwn yn wyliadwrus iawn o god llym a fyddai’n gorfodi cwmnïau nad oes diddordeb ganddynt fynd i mewn i gronfa swyddi Cymru am eu bod yn y sector preifat. Byddai hynny’n niweidio ansawdd lleoliad a dyfodol y bobl ifanc. Ar ben hynny, bydd cyflogadwyedd yr ymgeiswyr yn golygu y bydd yn haws i gwmnïau preifat yng Nghymru lenwi eu swyddi gwag yn y dyfodol.

I also want to stress the benefits of the Future Jobs fund for the local economies. Before it was scrapped, it created more than 9,000 jobs in Wales and directed more than £60 million—I will say that again: more than £60 million—into the poorest areas in society. The Welsh jobs fund will, once again, allow people to spend the money they have earned in their communities. Again, the long-term benefits should be included in today’s motion because the earning potential of those involved in the scheme will, it is hoped, rise over time, which will mean more consumer spending.

Yr wyf hefyd eisiau pwysleisio manteision cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol i’r economi leol. Cyn iddi gael ei dileu, creodd fwy na 9,000 o swyddi yng Nghymru a chyfarwyddodd dros £60 miliwn—dywedaf eto: dros £60 miliwn—i mewn i ardaloedd tlotaf y gymdeithas. Bydd cronfa swyddi Cymru, unwaith eto, yn galluogi pobl i wario’r arian y maent wedi ei ennill yn eu cymunedau. Unwaith eto, dylai’r manteision hirdymor gael eu cynnwys yn y cynnig heddiw oherwydd y gobaith yw y bydd potensial y rheiny sy’n cymryd rhan yn y cynllun i ennill cyflog yn cynyddu dros amser, a fydd yn golygu mwy o wariant gan ddefnyddwyr.

The Conservatives have talked about the Wales Future Jobs fund policy. They make a brief nod towards supporting today’s amendments, but their actions must speak louder than words. The words ‘unemployment is a price worth paying’ have echoed around the Tories for decades, but those words were turned into a brutal reality by the action of axing the Future Jobs fund. There is no getting away from it: the Tories are in Westminster and, by association, the words ‘unemployment is a price worth paying’ must be a tag that sticks to you as Welsh Conservatives. Apparently, having taken that ‘tough decision’, George Osborne is now straining at the leash to cut the 50 per cent tax rate for the wealthiest 1 per cent in Britain. The now famous quotation of the American business magnate Warren Buffett seems unhappily appropriate in today’s Tory-led UK. He said:

Mae’r Ceidwadwyr wedi siarad am bolisi cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yng Nghymru. Maent yn cyfeirio yn fyr at gefnogi gwelliannau heddiw, ond mae’n rhaid gwneud yn ogystal â dweud. Mae’r geiriau ‘mae diweithdra yn bris gwerth ei dalu’ wedi adleisio ymhlith y Torïaid ers degawdau, ond cafodd y geiriau hynny eu troi’n realiti creulon gan y weithred o ddileu cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Nid oes modd dianc: y Torïaid sydd yn San Steffan, a thrwy gysylltiad mae’n rhaid i’r geiriau ‘mae diweithdra yn bris gwerth ei dalu’ fod yn dag sy’n glynu wrthych chi fel Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. Mae’n debyg, ar ôl cymryd y ‘penderfyniad anodd’ hwnnw, fod George Osborne yn awr yn eiddgar iawn i dorri’r gyfradd dreth o 50 y cant ar gyfer yr 1 y cant cyfoethocaf ym Mhrydain. Mae dyfyniad enwog y gŵr busnes Americanaidd, Warren Buffett, yn ymddangos yn briodol, yn anffodus, yn y Deyrnas Unedig a arweinir gan y Torïaid heddiw. Meddai:

‘There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.’

Mae’n wir bod yna ryfel dosbarth, ond fy nosbarth i, y dosbarth cyfoethog, sy’n creu brwydr, a ni sy’n cario’r dydd.

Nick Ramsay: Will the Member give way?

Nick Ramsay: A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on—I beg your pardon, I thought the Member had concluded. Are you giving way, Ann?

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Galwaf ar—mae’n ddrwg gennyf, yr oeddwn yn meddwl bod yr Aelod wedi dod i ben. A ydych yn ildio, Ann?

Ann Jones: Yes, I am giving way.

Ann Jones: Ydw, yr wyf yn ildio.

Nick Ramsay: I heard what you said there, Ann. Thank you for giving way. Do you agree with the UK coalition Government’s policy of seeking to take some of the lowest paid people out of income tax altogether by raising the tax threshold to £10,000?

Nick Ramsay: Clywais yr hyn a ddywedasoch, Ann. Diolch ichi am ildio. A ydych yn cytuno â pholisi Llywodraeth glymblaid y DU o geisio cymryd rhai o’r bobl sydd ar y cyflogau isaf allan o dreth incwm yn llwyr drwy godi’r trothwy treth i £10,000?

Ann Jones: That is interesting, given that the Future Jobs fund was putting those people into jobs that would allow them to pay tax and therefore contribute to their communities. The people of Wales voted for the Welsh jobs fund to restore some common sense and common good in reaction to the neo-Thatcherite economics of Osborne and Clegg. I am proud of what was achieved by the UK Labour Government, and I am proud to see Welsh Labour take up the baton as part of the fight for a decent society.

Ann Jones: Mae hynny’n ddiddorol, o ystyried bod cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yn rhoi’r bobl hynny mewn swyddi a fyddai’n eu galluogi i dalu treth ac felly cyfrannu at eu cymunedau. Pleidleisiodd pobl Cymru o blaid cronfa swyddi Cymru i adfer ychydig synnwyr cyffredin a lles cyffredinol fel ymateb i economeg Thatcheraidd Osborne a Clegg. Yr wyf yn falch o’r hyn a gyflawnwyd gan Lywodraeth Lafur y DU, ac yr wyf yn falch o weld Llafur Cymru yn cymryd yr awenau fel rhan o’r frwydr ar gyfer cymdeithas weddus.

The Minister for Education and Skills (Leighton Andrews): The Liberal Democrats have managed to table this debate on the Welsh jobs fund in the very week in which the last participants in the Future Jobs fund complete their final week. In the course of my speech, I am very tempted to hold a minute’s silence for the passing of that fund, because I suspect that, for some Members, it would be preferable to some of the things that I intend to say this afternoon. Tomorrow, I am going to Newport to mark the closing of its Future Jobs fund and the things that have been done there, with the participation of the council, which, funnily enough, appears to be run by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Actually, Liberal Democrat-run councils have taken an active role in schemes under the Future Jobs fund in Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport. This is the very scheme they come here today to criticise.

Y Gweinidog dros Addysg a Sgiliau (Leighton Andrews): Mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi llwyddo i gyflwyno’r ddadl hon ar gronfa swyddi Cymru yn yr union wythnos y mae’r cyfranogwyr olaf yn y gronfa yn cwblhau eu hwythnos olaf. Yn ystod fy araith, caf fy nhemtio i gynnal munud o dawelwch yn sgil tranc y gronfa honno, oherwydd fy mod yn amau, i rai Aelodau, byddai’n well na rhai o’r pethau yr wyf yn bwriadu eu dweud y prynhawn yma. Yfory, yr wyf yn mynd i Gasnewydd i nodi cau ei chronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol a’r pethau sydd wedi cael eu gwneud yno, gyda chyfranogiad y cyngor, sydd, mae’n debyg, yn rhyfedd ddigon, yn cael ei redeg gan y Ceidwadwyr a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol. A dweud y gwir, mae cynghorau a redir gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cymryd rhan weithredol mewn cynlluniau o dan gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yn Abertawe, Caerdydd, Wrecsam a Chasnewydd. Dyma’r union gynllun y maent yn dod yma heddiw i’w feirniadu.

Eluned Parrott: I would be very sorry to think that you are taking an implied criticism of the Future Jobs fund. What we were trying to do was find a positive way forward in future for a fund that you have created—[Interruption.]

Eluned Parrott: Byddwn yn flin iawn i feddwl eich bod yn cymryd hynny fel beirniadaeth o gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Yr hyn yr oeddem yn ceisio ei wneud oedd dod o hyd i ffordd gadarnhaol ymlaen yn y dyfodol ar gyfer cronfa a grëwyd gennych—[Torri ar draws.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn.

Eluned Parrott: It is a fund that we have welcomed. How about looking to the future and not to the past, because the young people of Wales need you to do that and they need you to take responsibility for job creation. You have created a fund; we want to know what you are going to do with the money.

Eluned Parrott: Mae’n gronfa yr ydym wedi ei chroesawu. Beth am edrych i’r dyfodol ac nid i’r gorffennol, gan fod pobl ifanc Cymru angen ichi wneud hynny, ac y mae arnynt angen ichi fod yn gyfrifol am greu swyddi? Yr ydych wedi creu cronfa; yr ydym eisiau gwybod beth yr ydych yn mynd i’w wneud â’r arian.

Leighton Andrews: She says that they do not criticise the Future Jobs fund, but her colleague, Aled Roberts, called it a quick, cheap fix, despite the fact that his own council was making good use of that fund. In our manifesto, we made a commitment, which we will implement, to create a Welsh jobs fund. That is a key manifesto commitment. In the first year of delivery, it will create 4,000 job opportunities across Wales for unemployed young people aged 16 to 24, giving them work experience for a six-month period. This will be paid at or above the national minimum wage for a minimum of 25 hours per week, and the Welsh jobs fund will be developed to ensure that opportunities are available for all job-ready young people, including disabled people and those from ethnic minorities, and will provide access to opportunities that offer experience through both of our national languages in Wales. We will say more about that in the next month.

Leighton Andrews: Mae hi’n dweud nad ydynt yn beirniadu cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, ond mae ei chydweithiwr, Aled Roberts, wedi ei alw yn ateb cyflym a rhad, er gwaethaf y ffaith bod ei gyngor ei hun yn gwneud defnydd da o’r gronfa honno. Yn ein maniffesto, gwnaethom ymrwymiad y byddwn yn ei weithredu i greu cronfa swyddi yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n ymrwymiad maniffesto allweddol. Yn y flwyddyn gyntaf o’i weithredu, bydd yn creu 4,000 o gyfleoedd am swyddi ledled Cymru ar gyfer pobl ifanc ddi-waith rhwng 16 a 24 oed, gan roi profiad gwaith am gyfnod o chwe mis. Bydd hyn yn cael ei dalu ar, neu’n uwch na’r isafswm cyflog cenedlaethol am o leiaf 25 awr yr wythnos, a bydd cronfa swyddi Cymru yn cael ei datblygu i sicrhau bod cyfleoedd ar gael i bob person ifanc sy’n barod am swydd, gan gynnwys pobl anabl a’r rheiny o leiafrifoedd ethnig, a bydd yn darparu mynediad at gyfleoedd sy’n cynnig profiad drwy’r ddwy iaith genedlaethol yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn dweud mwy am hynny yn ystod y mis nesaf.

I am surprised by some of the contributions that I have heard today, because it seems that many of the speakers are ignorant of existing Welsh Government schemes that are working in parallel with the private sector. We work actively through a number of our schemes, including work-based learning, with small and medium-sized enterprises, but also with many of the larger anchor companies in Wales, which are delivering training opportunities throughout Wales. We have retained schemes to help mitigate the impact of the economic crisis, such as ReAct, Adapt, which is the new scheme that we have introduced, and Skills Growth Wales, which has emerged from ProAct. We work with the private sector and we will continue to do so. There has never been any doubt about our commitment to doing that.

Yr wyf wedi fy synnu gan rai o’r cyfraniadau a glywais heddiw, oherwydd mae’n ymddangos bod llawer o’r siaradwyr yn anwybodus o safbwynt cynlluniau presennol Llywodraeth Cymru sydd yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â’r sector preifat. Yr ydym yn mynd ati i weithio drwy nifer o’n cynlluniau, gan gynnwys dysgu sy’n seiliedig ar waith, gyda mentrau bach a chanolig, ond hefyd gyda nifer o’r cwmnïau angori mwy yng Nghymru, sy’n cyflwyno cyfleoedd hyfforddi ledled Cymru. Yr ydym wedi cadw cynlluniau i helpu i liniaru effaith yr argyfwng economaidd, megis ReAct, Adapt, sef y cynllun newydd yr ydym wedi ei gyflwyno, a Sgiliau Twf Cymru, sydd wedi deillio o ProAct. Yr ydym yn cydweithio â’r sector preifat, a byddwn yn parhau i wneud hynny. Ni fu erioed unrhyw amheuaeth ynghylch ein hymrwymiad i wneud hynny.

However, the Wales jobs fund that we will be creating will be broader than that. I was pleased to hear contributions today from a number of Members who have recognised what has been done by the public and the third sector alongside the private sector in creating job opportunities, not least through the Future Jobs fund. Therefore, we will be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment in relation to the economic renewal programme, and we will support the Conservative amendment relating to working with employers.

Fodd bynnag, bydd y gronfa swyddi Cymru y byddwn yn ei chreu yn ehangach na hynny. Yr oeddwn yn falch o glywed cyfraniadau heddiw gan nifer o Aelodau sydd wedi cydnabod yr hyn a wnaed gan y sector cyhoeddus a’r trydydd sector ochr yn ochr â’r sector preifat o ran creu cyfleoedd am swyddi, yn enwedig drwy gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Felly, byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant Plaid Cymru mewn perthynas â rhaglen adnewyddu’r economi, a byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr sy’n ymwneud â gweithio gyda chyflogwyr.

I want to say a few words about the Future Jobs fund. As colleagues from this side of the Chamber have said this afternoon, that fund has genuinely contributed to helping young people to get into work. I have visited schemes in Rhyl with my colleague, the Member for the Vale of Clwyd, and the Rhyl city strategy scheme is one of the most innovative and creative partnerships developing jobs there. I have also visited schemes in Neath Port Talbot and, as I said, I will be visiting schemes tomorrow in Newport City Council and I have visited schemes in my constituency.

Hoffwn ddweud ychydig eiriau am gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Fel y mae cydweithwyr yr ochr hon i’r Siambr wedi ei ddweud y prynhawn yma, mae’r gronfa honno wedi gwir gyfrannu at helpu pobl ifanc i gael gwaith. Yr wyf wedi ymweld â chynlluniau yn y Rhyl gyda’m cydweithiwr, yr Aelod dros Ddyffryn Clwyd, ac y mae cynllun strategaeth dinas y Rhyl yn un o’r partneriaethau mwyaf arloesol a chreadigol sy’n datblygu swyddi yno. Yr wyf hefyd wedi ymweld â chynlluniau yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot ac, fel y dywedais, byddaf yn ymweld â chynlluniau yfory yng Nghyngor Dinas Casnewydd ac yr wyf wedi ymweld â chynlluniau yn fy etholaeth.

As Mick Antoniw, the Member for Pontypridd said, we have benefited with nearly 10,000 people getting jobs through the Future Jobs fund in Wales. Some £16 million was invested in Wales through the Future Jobs fund. A range of jobs were created, including learning support workers, housing support officers and researchers; there was also a focus on green jobs, with a fund creating new roles for gardeners to improve community spaces as well as jobs to help local authorities with recycling work. Mark Isherwood was right to stress the innovative role played by the WCVA, which I have met in the last fortnight to discuss future developments in this field. Therefore, I think that the Future Jobs fund has been a success and I lament the fact that one of the first actions of the UK Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition was to scrap it.

Fel y dywedodd Mick Antoniw, yr Aelod dros Bontypridd, yr ydym wedi elwa, gyda bron i 10,000 o bobl yn cael swyddi drwy gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yng Nghymru. Buddsoddwyd rhyw £16 miliwn yng Nghymru drwy gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Cafodd amrywiaeth o swyddi eu creu, gan gynnwys gweithwyr cymorth dysgu, swyddogion cymorth tai ac ymchwilwyr. Yr oedd ffocws hefyd ar swyddi gwyrdd, gyda chronfa yn creu rolau newydd ar gyfer garddwyr i wella mannau cymunedol, yn ogystal â swyddi i helpu awdurdodau lleol gyda gwaith ailgylchu. Yr oedd Mark Isherwood yn iawn i bwysleisio rôl arloesol Cyngor Gweithredu Gwirfoddol Cymru, ac yr wyf wedi cwrdd â’r cyngor yn y pythefnos diwethaf i drafod datblygiadau yn y maes hwn yn dyfodol. Felly, credaf fod cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol wedi bod yn llwyddiant ac yr wyf yn gresynu’r ffaith mai un o gamau cyntaf clymblaid Ceidwadwyr a Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol y DU oedd i’w dileu.

The Liberal Democrats pledged to keep the Future Jobs fund. They said:

Addawodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i gadw cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Dywedasant hyn:

‘We have no plans to change or reduce existing government commitments to the Future Jobs fund. We believe that more help is needed for young people, not less.’

Nid oes gennym unrhyw gynlluniau i newid neu leihau ymrwymiadau presennol y Llywodraeth i gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Credwn mai mwy o gymorth y mae ar bobl ifanc ei angen, nid llai.

David Cameron praised the Future Jobs fund as a good scheme, and the Conservatives said that they had no plans to change existing Future Jobs fund commitments. Therefore, we can be clear about what happened. They said one thing in opposition and did another in Government. We said what we would do in our manifesto, and we will implement it in Government.

Canmolodd David Cameron gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol fel cynllun da, a dywedodd y Ceidwadwyr nad oedd ganddynt unrhyw gynlluniau i newid ymrwymiadau sydd eisoes yn bodoli o safbwynt cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Felly, gallwn fod yn glir ynghylch yr hyn a ddigwyddodd. Dywedasant un peth fel gwrthblaid a gwnaed fel arall fel Llywodraeth. Dywedasom beth y byddem yn ei wneud yn ein maniffesto, a byddwn yn rhoi hynny ar waith mewn Llywodraeth.

What is really going on here, as we know very well on these benches, is that we are witnessing an ideological assault on the public sector by the UK Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government. We have also witnessed an attack on young people. The UK Government has scrapped the child trust fund, and it has scrapped education maintenance allowances in England, though we are keeping them in Wales. The Liberal Democrats pledged to abolish tuition fees, of course, and ended up tripling them in Government. I know that there are still some honourable Liberal Democrats. [Interruption.] However, they have to understand that they are acting as human shields for their ideologically right-wing Government. Shame on them. We made our commitments to the young people of Wales in our manifesto, and we will implement them.

Yr hyn sy’n digwydd mewn gwirionedd yma, fel y gwyddom yn dda iawn ar y meinciau hyn, yw ein bod yn gweld ymosodiad ideolegol ar y sector cyhoeddus gan Lywodraeth y Ceidwadwyr a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn San Steffan. Yr ydym hefyd wedi gweld ymosodiad ar bobl ifanc. Mae Llywodraeth y DU wedi dileu’r gronfa ymddiriedolaeth plant, ac y mae wedi dileu lwfansau cynhaliaeth addysg yn Lloegr, er ein bod yn eu cadw yng Nghymru. Addawodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ddileu ffioedd dysgu, wrth gwrs, ond yn y pen draw, fe’u treblwyd mewn Llywodraeth. Gwn fod yna rai Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol anrhydeddus o hyd. [Torri ar draws.] Fodd bynnag, mae’n rhaid iddynt ddeall eu bod yn gweithredu fel gwarchodfa ddynol ar gyfer eu Llywodraeth adain-dde ideolegol. Cywilydd arnynt. Gwnaethom ein hymrwymiadau i bobl ifanc Cymru yn ein maniffesto, a byddwn yn eu rhoi ar waith.

Kirsty Williams: I thank colleagues for their contributions this afternoon, especially those from the Labour benches. If nothing else, they have put paid to all of the rumours from the Plaid spin doctors, bless them, who, following our contribution to the health debate, are busy upstairs stating that a deal had clearly been done between the two parties. [Laughter.]

Kirsty Williams: Yr wyf yn diolch i’m cydweithwyr am eu cyfraniadau y prynhawn yma, yn enwedig y rhai o’r meinciau Llafur. Os dim byd arall, maent wedi cael gwared â phob un o sibrydion dewiniaid delwedd Plaid, druain, sydd, yn dilyn ein cyfraniad i’r ddadl iechyd, yn brysur lan lofft yn datgan bod cytundeb wedi cael ei daro yn glir rhwng y ddwy blaid. [Chwerthin.]

Before I continue, I wish to clarify the party’s position on the amendments before us. We will be accepting amendments 3 and 4 in the name of William Graham, but not amendment 5. We believe that there should be a freeze in business rates, followed by a review, rather than the policy that he is advocating here. We will not be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment, because we believe that the jobs that could potentially be created and supported by the Welsh jobs fund should be available throughout Wales, not necessarily in the specific sectors identified in the programme.

Cyn imi barhau, hoffwn egluro safbwynt y blaid ar y gwelliannau ger ein bron. Byddwn yn derbyn gwelliannau 3 a 4 yn enw William Graham, ond nid gwelliant 5. Credwn y dylid rhewi ardrethi busnes, ac y dylai adolygiad ddilyn, yn hytrach na’r polisi y mae’n ei argymell yma. Ni fyddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant Plaid Cymru, oherwydd credwn y dylai’r swyddi a allai gael eu creu a’u cefnogi gan gronfa swyddi Cymru fod ar gael ledled Cymru, ac nid o reidrwydd yn y sectorau penodol a nodwyd yn y rhaglen.

Simon Thomas rose—

Simon Thomas a gododd—

Kirsty Williams: I do not have much time, so I will crack on, if you do not mind, Simon.

Kirsty Williams: Nid oes gennyf lawer o amser, felly byddaf yn bwrw ymlaen, os nad oes gwahaniaeth gennych, Simon.

I turn now to the issue that is clearly exercising the Minister’s mind, namely the Future Jobs fund in the UK. Of course, Leighton Andrews and the other Labour speakers failed to acknowledge that the Labour commitment to the Future Jobs fund was only up to 2012. While I acknowledge that there are some individuals who were helped by the scheme, the sad reality is that, after six months of being on the scheme, 50 per cent of those people were back on the dole. It simply did not create the long-term opportunities that the Minister claims. The facts speak for themselves. The cost for each person who took part in that scheme was six times more expensive than for any scheme of its kind that had come before. Leighton and his colleagues talk about cuts. If the cuts that are being introduced—which I regret hugely—are so bad, why will Ed Miliband and his colleagues in London not commit to reversing any of them? Ed Miliband has not committed to reversing a single one of the cuts that the Minister says are so bad.

Trof yn awr at y mater sydd yn amlwg yn trethu meddwl y Gweinidog, sef cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Wrth gwrs, methodd Leighton Andrews a’r siaradwyr Llafur eraill gydnabod mai dim ond hyd at 2012 oedd ymrwymiad Llafur i gronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol. Er fy mod yn cydnabod bod rhai unigolion wedi cael eu helpu gan y cynllun, y gwir trist yw—ar ôl chwe mis o fod ar y cynllun—bod 50 y cant o’r bobl hynny yn ôl ar y dôl. Yn syml, nid oedd yn creu’r cyfleoedd tymor hir y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu honni. Mae’r ffeithiau yn siarad yn glir. Yr oedd y gost ar gyfer pob person a gymerodd ran yn y cynllun chwe gwaith yn ddrutach nag ar gyfer unrhyw gynllun blaenorol o’i fath. Mae Leighton a’i gydweithwyr yn siarad am doriadau. Os ydyw’r toriadau sy’n cael eu cyflwyno—ac yr wyf yn gresynu’n fawr atynt—gynddrwg, pam na wnaiff Ed Miliband a’i gydweithwyr yn Llundain ymrwymo i wrthdroi unrhyw un ohonynt? Nid yw Ed Miliband wedi ymrwymo i wrthdroi unrhyw un o’r toriadau y mae’r Gweinidog yn dweud eu bod cynddrwg.

Leighton Andrews: Will the Member give way?

Leighton Andrews: A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?

The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. The Member has indicated that she will not be giving way during this speech.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae’r Aelod wedi dweud na fydd yn ildio yn ystod yr araith hon.

Kirsty Williams: The reality is that an alternative programme is being put in place at a UK level. I trust that it will be run in a way that will give long-term hope and aspiration to the young people who will participate in it. I welcome the focus of the Welsh Labour Government here on the issue of employment. It seems to me that there are a number of inherent weaknesses within the Welsh economy that stop us from being the successful nation that all of us would want to be. One of those weaknesses is our over-reliance on the public sector and the other is our lower skills levels compared with the rest of the UK. Those are two fundamental things that underpin our economy that drag us down. I hope that the money that the Welsh Labour Government has identified within its budget for its version of a jobs fund will help us to overcome those two fundamental challenges. We can use that funding to grow job opportunities within the private sector and to upskill our young people, which will put us in a better position to compete across the UK and internationally.

Kirsty Williams: Y gwir amdani yw bod rhaglen arall yn cael ei rhoi ar waith ar lefel y Deyrnas Unedig. Hyderaf y bydd yn cael ei rhedeg mewn ffordd a fydd yn rhoi gobaith yn y tymor hir a dyhead i’r bobl ifanc a fydd yn cymryd rhan ynddi. Yr wyf yn croesawu ffocws Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru yma ar y mater o gyflogaeth. Mae’n ymddangos i mi bod nifer o wendidau cynhenid o fewn economi Cymru sy’n ein hatal rhag bod y genedl lwyddiannus y byddai pob un ohonom eisiau bod. Un o’r gwendidau hynny yw ein gorddibyniaeth ar y sector cyhoeddus a’r llall yw ein lefelau sgiliau is o gymharu â gweddill y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r rheiny’n ddau beth sylfaenol sy’n sail i’n heconomi ac yn ein llusgo i lawr. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd yr arian y mae Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru wedi ei nodi yn ei chyllideb ar gyfer ei fersiwn hi o’r gronfa swyddi yn ein helpu i oresgyn y ddwy her sylfaenol hynny. Gallwn ddefnyddio’r cyllid hwnnw i dyfu cyfleoedd gwaith yn y sector preifat ac i wella sgiliau ein pobl ifanc, a fydd yn ein rhoi mewn sefyllfa well i gystadlu ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig ac yn rhyngwladol.

6.00 p.m.

I had hoped that the Minister would outline this afternoon how his jobs fund would help to tackle those two inherent problems in the Welsh economy. Instead, he spent all his time, not unsurprisingly, talking about the Government in Westminster and not about this fund. All I can say is that, after 145 days, the Minister does not seem to be any clearer in his mind about how it will work.

Yr oeddwn wedi gobeithio y byddai’r Gweinidog yn amlinellu y prynhawn yma sut y byddai ei gronfa swyddi yn helpu i fynd i’r afael â’r ddwy broblem gynhenid yn economi Cymru. Yn lle hynny, treuliodd ei holl amser, fel y gellid disgwyl, yn siarad am y Llywodraeth yn San Steffan ac nid am y gronfa hon. Y cyfan y gallaf ei ddweud yw, ar ôl 145 diwrnod nid yw’n ymddangos bod y Gweinidog yn gliriach yn ei feddwl ynghylch sut y bydd yn gweithio.

Leighton Andrews: When the Liberal Democrat-Conservative coalition announced the scrapping of the Future Jobs fund, the Liberal Democrats in this Chamber told us that they would replace it with something better. We are still waiting for that. I can tell her that my officials have been working at pace to deliver the Welsh jobs fund, and, as I said in my speech, we will be making an announcement on it in the next month.

Leighton Andrews: Pan gyhoeddodd clymblaid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol-Ceidwadwyr ei fod yn dileu cronfa Swyddi’r Dyfodol, dywedodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn y Siambr hon wrthym y byddent yn ei ddisodli â rhywbeth gwell. Rydym yn dal i aros am hynny. Gallaf ddweud wrthi fod fy swyddogion wedi bod yn gweithio ar gyflymder i gyflwyno’r gronfa swyddi Cymreig, ac, fel y dywedais yn fy araith, byddwn yn gwneud cyhoeddiad yn ei gylch yn y mis nesaf.

Kirsty Williams: Given the dire situation that you have just described, it is a pity that you could not have done it a bit faster, Minister. You have had an opportunity during this debate to outline your proposals, and you have chosen instead to talk about something completely different. I regret that, because there is an opportunity here to do something to help young unemployed people in this country, but you have chosen not to talk about it. We wanted to have the opportunity to talk about it, to ensure that this Government’s scheme is effective, helps young people and addresses some of the fundamental weaknesses in the Welsh economy, namely over-reliance on the public sector and a relatively low skills base. If you cannot acknowledge that those are some of the problems facing the Welsh economy, there is no hope that this fund will do what it needs to do to help to bridge those weaknesses.

Kirsty Williams: O ystyried y sefyllfa enbyd yr ydych newydd ei ddisgrifio, mae’n drueni na allech fod wedi gwneud hyn ychydig yn gyflymach, Weinidog. Yr ydych wedi cael cyfle yn ystod y ddadl hon i amlinellu eich cynigion, ac yr ydych wedi dewis yn lle hynny i siarad am rywbeth hollol wahanol. Yr wyf yn gresynu, oherwydd mae cyfle yma i wneud rhywbeth i helpu pobl ifanc ddi-waith yn y wlad hon, ond yr ydych wedi dewis peidio â siarad am y peth. Roeddem yn awyddus i gael y cyfle i siarad am y peth, i sicrhau bod cynllun y Llywodraeth hon yn effeithiol, yn helpu pobl ifanc ac yn mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r gwendidau sylfaenol yn economi Cymru, sef gorddibyniaeth ar y sector cyhoeddus a’r sylfaen sgiliau gymharol isel. Os nad ydych yn gallu cydnabod bod y rheiny’n rhai o’r problemau sy’n wynebu economi Cymru, nid oes unrhyw obaith y bydd y gronfa hon yn gwneud yr hyn y mae angen iddo ei wneud i helpu i bontio’r gwendidau hynny.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there is objection. Therefore, voting on this item will be deferred until voting time, which will now directly follow this item. Do three Members wish for the bell to be rung? I see that no-one does, so we will proceed.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw cytuno ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod gwrthwynebiad. Felly, bydd pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon yn cael ei ohirio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio, a fydd bellach yn dilyn yr eitem hon yn uniongyrchol. A oes tri Aelod yn dymuno i’r gloch gael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes, felly symudwn ymlaen.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.

Cyfnod Pleidleisio
Voting Time

Cynnig NDM4810: O blaid 52, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 5.
Motion NDM4810: For 52, Abstain 0, Against 5.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Black, Peter
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Roberts, Aled
Williams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

Cynnig NDM4812: O blaid 12, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 45.
Motion NDM4812: For 12, Abstain 0, Against 45.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Antoniw, Mick
Davies, Jocelyn
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce
Williams, Kirsty

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4812: O blaid 33, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 23.
Amendment 1 to NDM4812: For 33, Abstain 0, Against 23.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:	Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn: The following Members voted against:
Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Black, Peter Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Keith Drakeford, Mark Evans, Rebecca Gething, Vaughan Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane James, Julie Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Watson, Joyce Williams, Kirsty	Asghar, Mohammad Burns, Angela Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Paul Davies, Suzy Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Graham, William Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Isherwood, Mark Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Alun Ffred Jones, Elin Jones, Ieuan Wyn Millar, Darren Ramsay, Nick Sandbach, Antoinette Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Simon Whittle, Lindsay Wood, Leanne
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.
Cafodd gwelliant 2 ei ddad-ddethol. Amendment 2 deselected.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4812: O blaid 55, Ymatal 2, Yn erbyn 0.
Amendment 3 to NDM4812: For 55, Abstain 2, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: The following Members voted for:
Andrews, Leighton Antoniw, Mick Asghar, Mohammad Black, Peter Burns, Angela Chapman, Christine Cuthbert, Jeff Davies, Alun Davies, Andrew R.T. Davies, Jocelyn Davies, Keith Davies, Paul Davies, Suzy Drakeford, Mark Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord Evans, Rebecca Finch-Saunders, Janet George, Russell Gething, Vaughan Graham, William Gregory, Janice Griffiths, John Griffiths, Lesley Gruffydd, Llyr Huws Hart, Edwina Hedges, Mike Hutt, Jane Isherwood, Mark James, Julie Jenkins, Bethan Jones, Ann Jones, Carwyn Jones, Ieuan Wyn Lewis, Huw Mewies, Sandy Millar, Darren Morgan, Julie Neagle, Lynne Parrott, Eluned Powell, William Price, Gwyn R. Ramsay, Nick Rathbone, Jenny Rees, David Roberts, Aled Sandbach, Antoinette Sargeant, Carl Skates, Kenneth Thomas, Gwenda Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, Simon Watson, Joyce Whittle, Lindsay Williams, Kirsty Wood, Leanne
Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol: The following Members abstained: Jones, Elin Jones, Alun Ffred
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant. Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 4 i NDM4812: O blaid 51, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 6.
Amendment 4 to NDM4812: For 51, Abstain 0, Against 6.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Black, Peter
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Roberts, Aled
Williams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Cynnig NDM4812 fel y’i diwygiwyd:

Motion NDM4812 as amended:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1) Yn credu bod Cymru’n cael ei gwasanaethu’n dda gan ei rhwydwaith o Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth; ac

1) Believes that Wales is well served by its network of District General Hospitals; and

2) Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i gefnogi Byrddau Iechyd Lleol wrth iddynt gyflawni eu cyfrifoldebau i gynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau mewn modd priodol.

2) Calls on the Welsh Government to support LHBs as they fulfil their responsibilities to plan and deliver services appropriately.

3) Yn credu bod cleifion yn cael eu gwasanaethu orau gan wasanaethau a ddarperir mor agos â phosibl at gartrefi’r cleifion, ac sy’n ddiogel yn glinigol, gan ddefnyddio rhwydwaith o ysbytai cyffredinol dosbarth, ysbytai cymunedol a chanolfannau rhagoriaeth.

3) Believes that patients are best served by services provided as close to patients’ homes as possible, and which are clinically safe, utilising a network of district general hospitals, community hospitals and centres of excellence.

4) Yn credu y dylai’r Fforwm Clinigol Cenedlaethol, pan gaiff ei sefydlu, ystyried anghenion Ysbytai Cyffredinol Dosbarth wrth aildrefnu’r GIG yn y dyfodol.

4) Believes that the National Clinical Forum, when established, must take into consideration the needs of District General Hospitals in any future reorganisation of the NHS.

Cynnig NDM4812 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 34, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 23.
Motion NDM4812 as amended: For 34, Abstain 0, Against 23.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce
Williams, Kirsty

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM4812 fel y’i diwygiwyd.
Motion NDM4812 as amended agreed.

Cynnig NDM4811: O blaid 4, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 52.
Motion NDM4811: For 4, Abstain 0, Against 52.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Black, Peter
Parrott, Eluned
Roberts, Aled
Williams, Kirsty

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4811: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 17.
Amendment 1 to NDM4811: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 17.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Wood, Leanne

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Williams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4811: O blaid 40, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 17.
Amendment 2 to NDM4811: For 40, Abstain 0, Against 17.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4811: O blaid 28, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 29.
Amendment 3 to NDM4811: For 28, Abstain 0, Against 29.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Isherwood, Mark
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Millar, Darren
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Ramsay, Nick
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Whittle, Lindsay
Williams, Kirsty
Wood, Leanne

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Watson, Joyce

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 4 i NDM4811: O blaid 57, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 0.
Amendment 4 to NDM4811: For 57, Abstain 0, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Asghar, Mohammad
Black, Peter
Burns, Angela
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Gething, Vaughan
Graham, William
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
Isherwood, Mark
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Millar, Darren
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Ramsay, Nick
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sandbach, Antoinette
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Williams, Kirsty
Wood, Leanne

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 5 i NDM4811: O blaid 12, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 45.
Amendment 5 to NDM4811: For 12, Abstain 0, Against 45.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Asghar, Mohammad
Burns, Angela
Davies, Andrew R.T.
Davies, Paul
Davies, Suzy
Finch-Saunders, Janet
George, Russell
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Sandbach, Antoinette

Andrews, Leighton
Antoniw, Mick
Black, Peter
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davies, Alun
Davies, Jocelyn
Davies, Keith
Drakeford, Mark
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord
Evans, Rebecca
Gething, Vaughan
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws
Hart, Edwina
Hedges, Mike
Hutt, Jane
James, Julie
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Julie
Neagle, Lynne
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Price, Gwyn R.
Rathbone, Jenny
Rees, David
Roberts, Aled
Sargeant, Carl
Skates, Kenneth
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn
Thomas, Simon
Watson, Joyce
Whittle, Lindsay
Williams, Kirsty
Wood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment not agreed.

Cynnig NDM4811 fel y’i diwygiwyd:

Motion NDM4811 as amended:

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod ei Chronfa Swyddi Cymru yn cynnwys cyfleoedd hyfforddi a chyflogaeth yn unol â’r Rhaglen Adnewyddu’r Economi.

Calls on the Welsh government to ensure that its Welsh Jobs Fund includes employment and training opportunities in line with the Economic Renewal Programme.

Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithio’n agos gyda chyflogwyr lleol a darparwyr hyfforddiant i ganfod cyfleoedd drwy Gronfa Swyddi Cymru.

Calls on the Welsh Government to work closely with local employers and training providers to identify opportunities through the Welsh Jobs Fund.

Cynnig NDM4811 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 52, Ymatal 5, Yn erbyn 0.
Motion NDM4811 as amended: For 52, Abstain 5, Against 0.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Ymataliodd yr Aelodau canlynol:
The following Members abstained:

Black, Peter
Parrott, Eluned
Powell, William
Roberts, Aled
Williams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM4811 fel y’i diwygiwyd.
Motion NDM4811 as amended agreed.

Dadl Fer
Short Debate

Yr Anabledd Cudd—Materion Clyw yng Nghymru
The Hidden Disability—Hearing Issues in Wales

Mike Hedges: I am pleased to have this opportunity to bring forward a short debate on the issues affecting those who are either deaf or hard of hearing in Wales. As you know, this is a hidden disability; when you see people walking down the street, you cannot tell if they are deaf unless they are signing. A person’s failure to answer is normally put down to rudeness rather than deafness. Even in these politically correct times, people will say things such as ‘Are you deaf?’ and, even now, hearing loss can be the butt of a comedian’s jokes. My hope is that this debate will not only highlight the importance of this topic, but also stimulate a discussion through an exchange of ideas about how best to tackle the barriers that face those with hearing loss.

Mike Hedges: Rwyf yn falch o gael y cyfle hwn i gyflwyno dadl fer ar y materion sy’n effeithio ar y rhai sydd naill ai’n fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw yng Nghymru. Fel y gwyddoch, mae hwn yn anabledd cudd; pan fyddwch yn gweld pobl yn cerdded i lawr y stryd, ni allwch ddweud a ydynt yn fyddar oni bai eu bod yn defnyddio iaith arwyddion. Mae methiant person i ateb fel arfer yn cael ei ystyried yn anfoesgarwch yn hytrach na byddardod. Hyd yn oed yn ystod y cyfnod gwleidyddol cywir hwn, bydd pobl yn dweud pethau fel ‘A ydych yn fyddar?’ a, hyd yn oed yn awr, gall nam ar y clyw fod yn destun jôcs comedïwr. Fy ngobaith yw y bydd y ddadl hon nid yn unig yn amlygu pwysigrwydd y pwnc hwn, ond hefyd yn ysgogi trafodaeth drwy gyfnewid syniadau ynghylch sut orau i fynd i’r afael â’r rhwystrau sy’n wynebu’r rhai sydd â nam ar y clyw.

I thank Members, in advance, for expressing an interest in participating in what I hope will be a constructive debate. I have therefore agreed to give Ann Jones, Jenny Rathbone, Rebecca Evans, Mark Isherwood and Suzy Davies a minute to contribute to this debate.

Diolchaf i Aelodau, ymlaen llaw, am fynegi diddordeb mewn cymryd rhan yn yr hyn yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd yn ddadl adeiladol. Felly, yr wyf wedi cytuno i roi munud i gyfrannu at y ddadl hon i Ann Jones, Jenny Rathbone, Rebecca Evans, Mark Isherwood a Suzy Davies.

Daeth Rhodri Glyn Thomas i’r Gadair am 6.10 p.m.
Rhodri Glyn Thomas took the Chair at 6.10 p.m.

Minister, according to research by the charity Action On Hearing Loss—formerly the Royal National Institute for Deaf People—it is estimated that around one in six people in the UK have some form of hearing loss, with medical experts believing that some 4 million people are currently undiagnosed. Here in Wales, it is estimated that more than 480,000 people are either deaf or hard of hearing, with that number rising year on year.

Weinidog, yn ôl ymchwil gan yr elusen Action on Hearing Loss—Sefydliad Cenedlaethol Brenhinol Pobl Fyddar yn flaenorol—amcangyfrifir bod gan oddeutu un o bob chwech o bobl yn y DU ryw fath o golli clyw, gydag arbenigwyr meddygol yn credu bod tua 4 miliwn o bobl heb gael diagnosis eto. Yma yng Nghymru, amcangyfrifir bod mwy na 480,000 o bobl naill ai’n fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw, gyda’r nifer hwnnw’n cynyddu bob blwyddyn.

The most common form of hearing loss is age-related. The World Health Organization predicts that, by 2030, the onset of adult hearing loss will be one of the top 10 disease burdens in the UK—above diabetes and cataracts. In Wales, there have been some notable achievements and breakthroughs in supporting people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Programmes so far include the newborn screening programme, which came into force across Wales in 2003. This put Wales on the map as a leader in neonatal services, as the first of the home nations to implement this scheme. In 2004, the Welsh Government again led the way by recognising British Sign Language, followed by the introduction of best practice advice on providing services in BSL in the public sector. In 2007, we saw the then Minister for health introduce the cochlear implant programme and, shortly afterwards, the Welsh Government set up the early support programme to improve the delivery of services to disabled children and their families.

Mae’r ffurf fwyaf cyffredin o golli clyw yn gysylltiedig ag oedran. Mae Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd yn rhagweld y bydd dyfodiad colli clyw ymhlith oedolion erbyn 2030, ymhlith un o’r 10 uchaf o feichiau clefyd yn y DU—uwchlaw clefyd y siwgr a chataractau. Yng Nghymru, cafwyd rhai llwyddiannau a datblygiadau nodedig o ran cynorthwyo pobl sy’n fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw. Mae rhaglenni hyd yma yn cynnwys y rhaglen sgrinio newydd-anedig, a ddaeth i rym ar draws Cymru yn 2003. Mae hyn yn rhoi Cymru ar y map fel arweinydd mewn gwasanaethau newyddenedigol, fel y cyntaf o’r gwledydd cartref i weithredu’r cynllun hwn. Yn 2004, roedd Llywodraeth Cymru unwaith eto wedi arwain y ffordd drwy gydnabod Iaith Arwyddion Prydain, ac yna cyflwynodd gyngor ar arfer gorau ar ddarparu gwasanaethau mewn BSL yn y sector cyhoeddus. Yn 2007, gwelsom y Gweinidog dros iechyd yn cyflwyno’r rhaglen mewnblaniad cochleaidd, ac yn fuan wedi hynny, sefydlodd Llywodraeth Cymru raglen cymorth cynnar i wella darpariaeth gwasanaethau i blant anabl a’u teuluoedd.

More recently, the Minister for education announced funding for deaf awareness training to further educate professionals across Wales. We also saw the Welsh Government commission a report by RNID on the barriers for the deaf and hard of hearing community. In March 2010, the Welsh Government published a new set of quality standards aimed at improving services for deaf and hearing-impaired children.

Yn fwy diweddar, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros addysg gyllid ar gyfer hyfforddiant ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod i addysgu gweithwyr proffesiynol ledled Cymru ymhellach. Gwelsom hefyd Lywodraeth Cymru yn comisiynu adroddiad gan RNID ar y rhwystrau i bobl fyddar a thrwm eu clyw yn y gymuned. Ym mis Mawrth 2010, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth Cymru gyfres newydd o safonau ansawdd gyda’r nod o wella gwasanaethau ar gyfer plant byddar a phlant â nam ar eu clyw.

Despite these vast accomplishments, there is still work to be done to break down the barriers that face this community in Wales. With so many people likely to experience some form of hearing loss during their lives, identifying and treating the disease at an early stage remains key to combating hearing loss. Of course, the first step when a person is concerned about their quality of hearing is to see their GP. Although patients in Wales are seen within 14 weeks for their first referral to an audiology department, there have unfortunately been cases of people waiting in some parts of Wales for up to three years to have their hearing aids refitted or their hearing reassessed. We need to ensure that all patients referred to an audiology department are seen within the national waiting time target of 14 weeks, including reassessments and refittings.

Er gwaethaf y cyflawniadau helaeth hyn, mae yna waith i’w wneud i chwalu’r rhwystrau sy’n wynebu’r gymuned hon yng Nghymru. Gyda chymaint o bobl yn debygol o brofi rhyw fath o golled clyw yn ystod eu bywydau, mae nodi a thrin y clefyd yn gynnar yn parhau i fod yn allweddol i fynd i’r afael â cholli clyw. Wrth gwrs, y cam cyntaf pan fydd person yn pryderu am ansawdd eu clyw yw gweld eu meddyg teulu. Er y caiff cleifion yng Nghymru eu gweld o fewn 14 wythnos ar gyfer eu cyfeirio yn gyntaf at adran awdioleg, yn anffodus bu achosion o bobl yn aros mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru am hyd at dair blynedd i gael eu cymhorthion clyw wedi’u hailosod neu eu clyw wedi’i ailasesu. Mae angen i ni sicrhau bod pob claf sy’n cael ei gyfeirio at adran awdioleg yn cael ei weld o fewn y targed amser aros cenedlaethol o 14 wythnos, gan gynnwys ailasesu ac ailosodiadau.

Of course, audiology services are just one type of service that the deaf and hard of hearing community will need to access in their lifetime. With around 40 per cent of deaf people of all ages likely to experience a mental health difficulty at some point—it is easy to understand why that is the case—adequate mental health provisions are essential for the deaf and hard of hearing community.

Wrth gwrs, dim ond yn un math o wasanaeth y bydd angen i’r gymuned fyddar a thrwm ei chlyw gael mynediad iddo yn ystod ei oes yw gwasanaethau awdioleg. Gan fod tua 40 y cant o bobl fyddar o bob oedran yn debygol o brofi anhawster iechyd meddwl ar ryw adeg—mae’n hawdd deall pam mae hynny’n wir—mae darpariaethau iechyd meddwl digonol yn hanfodol ar gyfer pobl fyddar a thrwm eu clyw yn y gymuned.

Wales is the only home nation not to have a dedicated specialist mental health service for deaf adults, children and young people, although I am aware that the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board has made some progress in this field. Needless to say, the deaf and hard of hearing community has to overcome considerable barriers to access mental health services that meet its needs. These barriers include inappropriate communication, lack of information, insufficient training and low levels of deaf awareness. Often, it is a case of people not knowing how to talk to the deaf, and not using signing when appropriate.

Cymru yw’r unig wlad gartref heb wasanaeth iechyd meddwl arbenigol penodol ar gyfer oedolion a phlant a phobl ifanc byddar, er fy mod yn ymwybodol bod Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr wedi gwneud rhywfaint o gynnydd yn y maes hwn. Afraid dweud, mae’n rhaid i’r gymuned fyddar a thrwm ei chlyw oresgyn rhwystrau sylweddol i gael mynediad at wasanaethau iechyd meddwl sy’n bodloni ei hanghenion. Mae’r rhwystrau hyn yn cynnwys, cyfathrebu amhriodol, diffyg gwybodaeth, hyfforddiant annigonol a lefelau isel o ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod. Yn aml, mae’n fater o’r ffaith nad yw pobl yn gwybod sut mae siarad â’r byddar, ac yn peidio â defnyddio iaith arwyddion pan fo hynny’n briodol.

I am aware that the final recommendations of the group of specialists was handed to the previous Minister for Health and Social Services last September and, with the Minister’s support, was forwarded to the mental health programme board for consideration. I would hope that this could now be implemented.

Yr wyf yn ymwybodol bod argymhellion terfynol y grŵp o arbenigwyr wedi eu rhoi i’r Gweinidog blaenorol dros iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol fis Medi diwethaf a, gyda chefnogaeth y Gweinidog, fe’u hanfonwyd ymlaen at y bwrdd rhaglen iechyd meddwl i’w hystyried. Byddwn yn gobeithio y gallai hyn yn awr gael ei roi ar waith.

It is essential that deaf people of all ages receive equality of service provision when living in Wales. I believe that addressing this issue by introducing specialist mental health service will greatly benefit those who are in desperate need of these services. Minister, research by Action On Hearing Loss Cymru found that, in some cases, it can take up to 15 years for a person to seek help after first noticing that their hearing is deteriorating. Turning the television volume up is one thing that people do. They also ask people to speak up and so on. This means that they do not access help as soon as they could.

Mae’n hanfodol bod pobl fyddar o bob oed yn cael darpariaeth gyfartal o wasanaethau wrth fyw yng Nghymru. Credaf y bydd mynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn drwy gyflwyno gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl arbenigol yn fudd mawr i’r rhai sydd ag angen dybryd y gwasanaethau hyn. Weinidog, canfu ymchwil gan Action on Hearing Loss Cymru y gall, mewn rhai achosion, gymryd hyd at 15 mlynedd i berson ofyn am gymorth ar ôl sylwi am y tro cyntaf bod eu clyw yn dirywio. Mae troi’r sain i fyny ar y teledu yn un peth y mae pobl yn ei wneud. Maen nhw hefyd yn gofyn i bobl siarad yn uwch ac yn y blaen. Mae hyn yn golygu nad ydynt yn cael mynediad i help cyn gynted ag y gallent.

Many factors can affect hearing: working in a noisy workplace such as steel works, going to bars, listening to loud music in cars, or on iPods, which can pump music directly into people’s ears. We have health and safety legislation designed to protect people in the workplace, but it does not protect young children and adults from the noise of iPods and other music-playing devices. This is a ticking time bomb of noise-induced hearing loss.

Gall llawer o ffactorau effeithio ar eu clyw: gweithio mewn gweithle swnllyd megis gwaith dur, mynd i fariau, gwrando ar gerddoriaeth uchel mewn ceir, neu ar iPod, a all bwmpio cerddoriaeth yn uniongyrchol i glustiau pobl. Mae gennym ddeddfwriaeth iechyd a diogelwch a luniwyd i amddiffyn pobl yn y gweithle, ond nid yw’n diogelu plant ifanc ac oedolion rhag sŵn iPods a dyfeisiau eraill sy’n chwarae cerddoriaeth. Mae hwn yn fom sydd yn ticio o ran colli clyw oherwydd sŵn.

The frustrating fact, of course, is that noise-induced hearing loss is preventable. In my opinion, effective and informative public health awareness campaigns play a vital role in combating noise-induced hearing loss. We must remind not just children and young people, but the general public at large that once the sensory cells in their ears are damaged, there is no going back—they will not be repaired. Can the Minister therefore tell me what the Welsh Government will do to promote and progress public health campaigns on hearing care in Wales?

Y ffaith rwystredig, wrth gwrs, yw y gellir atal colli clyw oherwydd sŵn. Yn fy marn i, o ran colli clyw oherwydd sŵn, mae gan ymgyrchoedd ymwybyddiaeth iechyd cyhoeddus effeithiol a llawn gwybodaeth rôl hanfodol. Mae’n rhaid i ni atgoffa nid dim ond plant a phobl ifanc, ond y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol, unwaith y mae’r celloedd synhwyraidd yn eu clustiau yn cael eu difrodi, nid oes modd mynd yn ôl—ni chânt eu hatgyweirio. Felly, a all y Gweinidog ddweud wrthyf beth fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i hyrwyddo a datblygu ymgyrchoedd iechyd cyhoeddus ar ofal clyw yng Nghymru?

6.15 p.m.

The Minister will be aware that charities such as Action on Hearing Loss Cymru are currently working with Public Health Wales on a number of potential campaigns, such as developing lesson plans on noise-induced hearing loss to be delivered in schools in personal and social education classes. These proposals are obviously at an early stage of development, however, I look forward to seeing the final product and hope that the Welsh Government will be in full support of such educational campaigns.

Bydd y Gweinidog yn ymwybodol bod elusennau megis Action on Hearing Loss Cymru ar hyn o bryd yn gweithio gydag Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru ar nifer o ymgyrchoedd posibl, fel datblygu cynlluniau gwersi ar golli clyw a ysgogwyd gan sŵn i gael eu darparu mewn ysgolion mewn dosbarthiadau addysg bersonol a chymdeithasol. Mae’r cynigion hyn yn amlwg yn gynnar yn y broses o gael eu datblygu, fodd bynnag, edrychaf ymlaen at weld y cynnyrch terfynol a gobeithio y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhoi cefnogaeth lawn i ymgyrchoedd addysgol o’r fath.

As a former lecturer who has worked with young people for over 25 years, it is my belief that education is a key factor in a young person’s chances. People with hearing loss—and I have taught people with hearing loss—are not achieving as much as they could, which affects their life chances. Research conducted by the National Deaf Children’s Society reveals large attainment gaps between hearing and non-hearing people at every key stage. For instance, research in 2008 found that deaf pupils in Wales were 30 per cent less likely to achieve five GCSEs at grades A to C than their peers. One step that the Welsh Government could take to bridge the gap for those who are suffering from hearing loss is to ensure that new build schools are acoustically friendly. With building regulations due to be devolved to the Assembly this December, strengthening building bulletin 93 by incorporating better school acoustics can be made a reality. A good acoustic environment will ensure that not only deaf and partially deaf children, but all children, are able to make the best use of this equipment to learn effectively.

Fel cyn darlithydd sydd wedi gweithio gyda phobl ifanc ers dros 25 mlynedd, fy nghred i yw bod addysg yn ffactor allweddol o ran cyfleoedd person ifanc. Nid yw pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw—ac yr wyf wedi dysgu pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw—yn cyflawni cymaint ag y gallent, sy’n effeithio ar eu cyfleoedd mewn bywyd. Mae ymchwil a gynhaliwyd gan y Gymdeithas Genedlaethol i Blant Byddar yn datgelu bylchau cyrhaeddiad mawr rhwng pobl sy’n gallu clywed a phobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw ym mhob cyfnod allweddol. Er enghraifft, dengys ymchwil a wnaed yn 2008 bod disgyblion byddar yng Nghymru 30 y cant yn llai tebygol o ennill pump TGAU ar raddau A i C na’u cyfoedion. Un cam y gallai Llywodraeth Cymru ei gymryd i gau’r bwlch ar gyfer y rhai sydd yn dioddef o golli clyw yw sicrhau bod ysgolion adeiladau newydd wedi’u hadeiladu mewn modd sy’n ystyriol o’r acwsteg. Gyda rheoliadau adeiladu i fod i gael eu datganoli i’r Cynulliad ym mis Rhagfyr, gall cryfhau bwletin adeiladu 93 drwy ymgorffori gwell acwsteg mewn ysgolion gael ei wneud yn realiti. Byddai amgylchedd acwsteg da yn sicrhau y gall nid yn unig plant byddar a rhannol fyddar, ond pob plentyn, wneud y defnydd gorau o’r offer hwn i ddysgu’n effeithiol.

It is important to note that hearing loss is not a learning disability, and that the majority of deaf and partially deaf children in Wales attend mainstream schools. With the right support and surroundings, pupils with hearing loss will be able to achieve on par with their peers, which, in turn, will help in closing both the gap in educational attainment and, more importantly, employability. I ask for the Minister’s assurance that she will discuss this matter with both the Minister for Education and Skills and other Cabinet colleagues with the aim of incorporating better school acoustics into Welsh Government policy.

Mae’n bwysig nodi nad yw colli clyw yn anabledd dysgu, a bod y rhan fwyaf o’r plant byddar a rhannol fyddar yng Nghymru yn mynychu ysgolion prif ffrwd. Gyda’r cymorth a’r amgylchedd cywir, gall disgyblion sydd wedi colli eu clyw gyflawni’n gydradd â’u cyfoedion, a fydd, yn ei dro, yn helpu wrth gau’r bwlch mewn cyrhaeddiad addysgol ac, yn bwysicach, cyflogadwyedd. Gofynnaf am sicrwydd gan y Gweinidog y bydd yn trafod y mater hwn gyda’r Gweinidog dros Addysg a Sgiliau ac aelodau eraill y Cabinet gyda’r nod o ymgorffori acwsteg ysgolion gwell i mewn i bolisi Llywodraeth Cymru.

Minister, regardless of the causes of hearing loss—whether age, excessive noise, injury or medication—the stark reality is that this condition affects one in six of us, or, to put it into this context, 10 out of the 60 Assembly Members will be affected by it. It is essential that this Welsh Government takes the lead within the UK and builds upon its achievements to ensure that the deaf and hard of hearing community can enjoy full and independent lifestyles, free from stigma, regardless of disability and based entirely on equality of opportunity.

Weinidog, beth bynnag yw achosion colli clyw—pa un ai oedran, gormod o sŵn, anaf neu feddyginiaeth—y gwir plaen yw bod y cyflwr hwn yn effeithio ar un o bob chwech ohonom, neu, i’w roi yn y cyd-destun hwn, bydd yn effeithio ar 10 o’r 60 Aelod Cynulliad. Mae’n hanfodol bod Llywodraeth Cymru’n arwain o fewn y DU ac yn adeiladu ar ei llwyddiannau i sicrhau y gall y gymuned o bobl fyddar a thrwm eu clyw fwynhau bywydau llawn ac annibynnol, yn rhydd o stigma, beth bynnag fo’u hanabledd ac yn gwbl seiliedig ar gyfle cyfartal.

Rebecca Evans: The hidden nature of deafness is highlighted in the title of this short debate. However, it is vital that deafness is not hidden in policy making. I am therefore pleased that our Labour manifesto included a specific section on services for deaf people. I take this opportunity to ask the Welsh Government to build on this and on our equality standards, along with the quality standards for paediatric audiology, to ensure that deaf children are able to fulfil their potential. Mike Hedges has outlined the concerning gaps in attainment between deaf and hearing children. With that in mind, the Welsh Government must ensure that the individual development plans that are being piloted to replace statements are assessed to ensure that they meet the needs of children and young people who are deaf and commit to further awareness raising in relation to deafness for both new teachers and those who have been teaching for many years.

Rebecca Evans: Mae natur gudd byddardod yn cael ei amlygu yn nheitl y ddadl fer hon. Fodd bynnag, mae’n hanfodol nad yw byddardod yn cael ei guddio wrth lunio polisi. Yr wyf felly yn falch bod ein maniffesto Llafur yn cynnwys adran benodol ar wasanaethau i bobl fyddar. Cymeraf y cyfle hwn i ofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru i adeiladu ar hyn ac ar ein safonau cydraddoldeb, ynghyd â safonau ansawdd ar gyfer awdioleg pediatrig, i sicrhau bod plant byddar yn gallu cyflawni eu potensial. Amlinellodd Mike Hedges y bylchau pryderus mewn cyrhaeddiad rhwng plant byddar a’r rhai sy’n gallu clywed. Gyda hynny mewn golwg, mae’n rhaid i Lywodraeth Cymru sicrhau bod y cynlluniau datblygu unigol y cynhelir peilot arnynt i ddisodli datganiadau yn cael eu hasesu i sicrhau eu bod yn diwallu anghenion plant a phobl ifanc sy’n fyddar ac ymrwymo i godi ymwybyddiaeth bellach o fyddardod ar gyfer athrawon newydd a’r rhai sydd wedi bod yn dysgu ers blynyddoedd lawer.

The NDCS has been asking deaf children what they would like to do when they grow up. It is of no surprise that they have the same aspirations as their hearing counterparts—to be veterinarians, farmers, pilots, hairdressers, fashion designers, even Formula 1 drivers. Therefore, the Government must continue to be proactive in ensuring that children and young people who are deaf are not disadvantaged as they pursue their dreams and ambitions.

Mae’r NDCS wedi bod yn gofyn i blant byddar beth yr hoffent ei wneud ar ôl iddynt dyfu i fyny. Nid yw’n syndod bod ganddynt yr un dyheadau â’u cymheiriaid sy’n gallu clywed—i fod yn filfeddygon, ffermwyr, peilotiaid, pobl trin gwallt, dylunwyr ffasiwn, hyd yn oed gyrwyr Fformiwla 1. Felly, mae’n rhaid i’r Llywodraeth barhau i fod yn rhagweithiol wrth sicrhau nad yw plant a phobl ifanc sy’n fyddar o dan anfantais wrth iddynt ddilyn eu breuddwydion a’u huchelgais.

Jenny Rathbone: I just want to add some points to what has been said already about the difficulty that people who are deaf have in accessing public services. Action on Hearing Loss Cymru’s research shows that two out of three deaf people have difficulty in accessing public services. For example, if buildings do not have loop systems, people find it extremely frustrating trying to follow the conversation that is going on. There is a particular problem with regard to people who need translation into British Sign Language. It is not well understood that, for a significant minority, that is the only language that they understand. That is to say that they cannot read English and therefore cannot even carry out such daily tasks as reading a bus timetable, never mind understand information in leaflets about services that might be available, or read medical appointment letters.

Jenny Rathbone: Hoffwn ychwanegu rhai pwyntiau i’r hyn a ddywedwyd eisoes am yr anhawster sydd gan bobl sy’n fyddar wrth gael gafael ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Dengys ymchwil Action on Hearing Loss Cymru bod dau o bob tri person byddar yn cael anhawster wrth gael gafael ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Er enghraifft, os nad oes gan adeiladau systemau dolen, mae pobl yn ei chael yn rhwystredig iawn wrth geisio dilyn sgwrs. Mae problem benodol o ran pobl sydd angen cyfieithiad i Iaith Arwyddion Prydain. Ni ddeellir yn dda mai dyna’r unig iaith y mae lleiafrif sylweddol yn ei deall. Hynny yw, ni allant ddarllen Saesneg ac felly ni allant hyd yn oed gyflawni tasgau dyddiol megis darllen amserlen bysiau, heb sôn am ddeall gwybodaeth mewn taflenni ynghylch gwasanaethau a allai fod ar gael, neu ddarllen llythyrau apwyntiad meddygol.

It is unfortunate that some public services completely ignore the Welsh Government guidance, produced in 2004, on the use of BSL. In one case that I have been told about, a general practitioner failed to book a BSL interpreter to inform a patient that he had cancer and instead asked a relative to translate. That is completely unacceptable. We must remind public services about this guidance and ensure that it is followed, so that deaf people have access to public services. Public services have a real duty to do specialist outreach work with this hard-to-reach group, whether through the use of voluntary organisations or through training their own communication support workers.

Mae’n anffodus bod rhai gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn anwybyddu’n llwyr ganllawiau Llywodraeth Cymru, a gynhyrchwyd yn 2004, ar y defnydd o BSL. Mewn un achos y soniwyd wrthyf amdano, methodd meddyg teulu â threfnu dehonglydd BSL i hysbysu claf bod ganddo ganser ac yn lle hynny gofynnodd i berthynas gyfieithu. Mae hynny’n gwbl annerbyniol. Mae’n rhaid inni atgoffa gwasanaethau cyhoeddus am y canllawiau hyn a sicrhau y caiff ei ddilyn, fel y caiff pobl fyddar fynediad i wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae gan wasanaethau cyhoeddus ddyletswydd wirioneddol i wneud gwaith allgymorth arbenigol â’r grŵp hwn sy’n anodd eu cyrraedd, boed drwy sefydliadau gwirfoddol neu drwy hyfforddi eu gweithwyr cymorth cyfathrebu eu hunain.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Jenny, please draw to a close; there are three other speakers.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Jenny, a wnewch ddirwyn i ben os gwelwch yn dda; mae yna dri siaradwr arall.

Jenny Rathbone: If we do not do that, the mental health issues that were alluded to can only get worse.

Jenny Rathbone: Os na wnawn hynny, dim ond gwaethygu y gall y materion iechyd meddwl y cyfeiriwyd atynt ei wneud.

Ann Jones: I thank Mike Hedges for raising the issues of people who are deaf or hard of hearing in his first short debate. Mike has become a member of the all-party group on deaf issues, which has been successful in helping the Government to form its policies, such as those on neonatal hearing screening, the use of BSL, and our acceptance of BSL as recognised language. I want to concentrate briefly on lip reading. I believe that it is an important tool for people with hearing loss, as does the all-party group. We believe that people with hearing loss should be able to access affordable lip-reading classes to help them to lead full, independent lives. Action on Hearing Loss Cymru’s report, ‘Paying Lip Service’, found that there are only 19 lip-reading classes in Wales, which means that, in some areas, there is no access to those courses whatsoever and no service available—yet this is a vital tool for people with hearing loss. I had a meeting with the Minister for social justice in the last Assembly, and he suggested that lip reading be included in the overarching community strategy. In her response, can the Minister give us an update on this?

Ann Jones: Diolchaf i Mike Hedges am godi materion pobl sy’n fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw yn ei ddadl fer gyntaf. Mae Mike wedi dod yn aelod o’r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar faterion pobl fyddar, sydd wedi bod yn llwyddiannus wrth helpu’r Llywodraeth i ffurfio ei pholisïau, fel y rhai ar sgrinio clyw babanod newydd-anedig, y defnydd o BSL, a’n derbyniad ni o Iaith Arwyddion Prydain fel iaith gydnabyddedig. Yr wyf am ganolbwyntio’n fyr ar ddarllen gwefusau. Credaf ei fod yn offeryn pwysig ar gyfer pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw, fel y gwna’r grŵp trawsbleidiol. Credwn y dylai pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw allu cael gafael ar ddosbarthiadau darllen gwefusau fforddiadwy i’w helpu i fyw bywydau llawn, annibynnol. Canfu adroddid Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, ‘Paying Lip Service’, mai dim ond 19 o ddosbarthiadau darllen gwefusau sydd yng Nghymru, sy’n golygu, mewn rhai ardaloedd, nad oes unrhyw fynediad i’r cyrsiau hynny o gwbl ac nad oes gwasanaeth ar gael—ac eto mae hwn yn adnodd hanfodol ar gyfer pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw. Cefais gyfarfod gyda’r Gweinidog dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn y Cynulliad diwethaf, ac awgrymodd y dylai darllen gwefusau cael ei gynnwys yn y strategaeth gymunedol gyffredin. Yn ei hymateb, a all y Gweinidog roi diweddariad inni ar hyn?

Suzy Davies: I also thank Mike Hedges for bringing this debate forward, as it gives us a chance to air some of the issues raised not just by representative groups, but by constituents. I suspect that most of us are likely to encounter deafness within our own families, as members of our families get older and begin to lose their hearing. I take on board the findings by Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, but I would like to raise a point regarding deaf children and, in particular, deaf children who are growing up in a Welsh-language environment. We have already heard that deaf children with no other additional learning needs have a lower level of educational attainment than their peers. That is troubling, not least for their future wellbeing. However, the Government’s Welsh in education strategic plans, which ask local authorities to provide plans to Government, only ask for very general information on additional learning needs support. Will the Minister consider mapping the availability of specialist support for deaf pupils and students who live and learn through the medium of Welsh? As the Government is planning statutory status for Welsh-language plans, the specific needs of deaf children should be taken into account.

Suzy Davies: Diolchaf finnau i Mike Hedges am gyflwyno’r ddadl hon, gan ei bod yn rhoi cyfle inni wyntyllu rhai o’r materion a godwyd nid yn unig gan grwpiau cynrychioliadol, ond gan etholwyr. Yr wyf yn amau bod y rhan fwyaf ohonom yn debygol o ddod ar draws byddardod o fewn ein teuluoedd ein hunain, wrth i aelodau ein teuluoedd heneiddio a dechrau colli eu clyw. Yr wyf yn derbyn y canfyddiadau gan Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, ond hoffwn godi pwynt ynghylch plant byddar, ac, yn benodol, plant byddar sy’n tyfu i fyny mewn amgylchedd cyfrwng Cymraeg. Yr ydym eisoes wedi clywed bod gan blant byddar sydd heb unrhyw anghenion dysgu ychwanegol eraill lefel is o gyrhaeddiad addysgol na’u cyfoedion. Mae hynny’n peri gofid, yn enwedig o ran eu lles yn y dyfodol. Fodd bynnag, mae cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg y Llywodraeth, sy’n gofyn i awdurdodau lleol ddarparu cynlluniau i’r Llywodraeth, ddim ond yn gofyn am wybodaeth gyffredinol iawn ar gymorth anghenion dysgu ychwanegol. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ystyried mapio argaeledd cymorth arbenigol ar gyfer disgyblion a myfyrwyr byddar sydd yn byw ac yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Gan fod y Llywodraeth yn cynllunio ar gyfer statws statudol ar gyfer cynlluniau iaith Gymraeg, dylid ystyried anghenion penodol plant byddar.

Mark Isherwood: Action on Hearing Loss Cymru’s research last year found that 80 per cent of respondents said that a lack of deaf awareness was the main barrier to them using services. The report identifies the everyday barriers that we deaf or hard of hearing people face daily when using public services, including health services, post offices and banks, public transport, the arts and entertainment, leisure activities, employment and training. The report reveals that over four fifths of us believe that being deaf or hard of hearing makes it harder for us to use services. Seventy-nine per cent of respondents believe that being deaf or hard of hearing makes it harder for them to enjoy the arts, entertainment or leisure. Earlier this year, several recommendations from Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, then RNID Cymru, were included in the report on accessibility to the arts produced by the former Communities and Culture Committee. One of these was that the Welsh Government should work with the arts council to build in a robust auditing process, to ensure full accountability from its funded organisations with regard to delivering arts performances and events that are fully accessible to people with hearing loss. So, I would be grateful, Minister, in your response, if you could tell us what steps have been taken so far to introduce and develop this auditing process.

Mark Isherwood: Canfu ymchwil Action on Hearing Loss Cymru y llynedd bod 80 y cant o ymatebwyr wedi dweud mai diffyg ymwybyddiaeth o fyddardod oedd y prif rwystr iddynt rhag defnyddio gwasanaethau. Mae’r adroddiad yn nodi rhwystrau bob dydd a wynebwn ni bobl fyddar neu drwm ein clyw yn ddyddiol wrth ddefnyddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys gwasanaethau iechyd, swyddfeydd post a banciau, trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus, y celfyddydau ac adloniant, gweithgareddau hamdden, cyflogaeth a hyfforddiant. Mae’r adroddiad yn datgelu bod dros bedwar ym mhob pump ohonom yn credu bod bod yn fyddar neu’n drwm ein clyw yn ei gwneud hi’n anoddach i ni ddefnyddio gwasanaethau. Mae 79 y cant o ymatebwyr yn credu bod bod yn fyddar neu’n drwm eu clyw yn ei gwneud hi’n anoddach iddynt fwynhau’r celfyddydau, adloniant neu hamdden. Yn gynharach eleni, cynhwyswyd nifer o argymhellion Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, RNID Cymru bryd hynny, yn yr adroddiad ar hygyrchedd y celfyddydau a gynhyrchwyd gan y cyn Bwyllgor Diwylliant a Chymunedau. Un o’r rhain oedd y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru weithio gyda chyngor y celfyddydau i adeiladu i mewn broses archwilio gadarn, er mwyn sicrhau atebolrwydd llawn gan y sefydliadau y mae’n eu hariannu o ran darparu perfformiadau a digwyddiadau celfyddydol sy’n gwbl hygyrch i bobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw. Felly, byddwn yn ddiolchgar, Weinidog, yn eich ymateb, pe gallech ddweud wrthym pa gamau sydd wedi’u cymryd hyd yma i gyflwyno a datblygu’r broses archwilio hon.

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House (Jane Hutt): As the Assembly Member for Swansea East has stated, it is not always recognised that being deaf or losing your hearing can be seriously debilitating. I know that people with hearing loss can experience significant barriers to participation in everyday life. Such people form a significant percentage of the population, and I congratulate the Member for Swansea East on making this the subject of his short debate. As the Minister who has responsibility for equality, I want to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to lead a full life. I want a Wales in which deafness or hearing loss does not limit or determine opportunity.

Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Jane Hutt): Fel y soniodd yr Aelod Cynulliad dros Ddwyrain Abertawe, ni chydnabyddir bob amser y gall bod yn fyddar neu golli eich clyw fod yn ddifrifol wanychol. Gwn y gall pobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw brofi rhwystrau sylweddol wrth gyfrannu i fywyd pob dydd. Mae pobl o’r fath yn ffurfio canran sylweddol o’r boblogaeth, a hoffwn longyfarch yr Aelod dros Ddwyrain Abertawe ar wneud hyn yn bwnc ar gyfer ei ddadl fer. Fel y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb dros gydraddoldeb, yr wyf am sicrhau bod pawb yn cael y cyfle i fyw bywyd llawn. Yr wyf eisiau Cymru ble nad yw byddardod neu golli’ch clyw yn cyfyngu ar nac yn pennu cyfle.

I was pleased to speak at the Action on Hearing Loss Cymru reception last week and to meet volunteers and service users, and to meet the National Deaf Children’s Society to discuss the many issues that have been raised today regarding the needs of deaf children, which were raised in particular by Rebecca Evans, Jenny Rathbone and Suzy Davies.

Yr oeddwn yn falch i siarad yn nerbyniad Action on Hearing Loss Cymru’r wythnos diwethaf ac i gwrdd â gwirfoddolwyr a defnyddwyr gwasanaethau, ac i gyfarfod y Gymdeithas Genedlaethol i Blant Byddar i drafod llawer o faterion a godwyd heddiw ynglŷn ag anghenion plant byddar, a godwyd yn benodol gan Rebecca Evans, Jenny Rathbone a Suzy Davies.

I chair the disability equality advisory group, which provides a forum for disabled people and their representative organisations to engage with us and influence us as we develop policies and projects. It is vital that we have ongoing dialogue through such fora, as well as that we meet groups, attend receptions and receive the evidence that is so abundant in this field. The group was set up as a task-and-finish group to report on the Welsh Ministers’ disability equality duty, and it includes a range of stakeholders to help us to take forward co-ordinated action on improving equality of opportunity for disabled people. As I said yesterday in the Chamber in my statement on equalities, I have decided that the group should continue as an ongoing forum, but with revised terms of reference, as it provides such a valuable contribution to the equality agenda.

Rwy’n cadeirio’r grŵp ymgynghorol ar gydraddoldeb anabledd, sy’n darparu fforwm ar gyfer pobl anabl a’r mudiadau sy’n eu cynrychioli i ymgysylltu â ni a dylanwadu arnom wrth inni ddatblygu polisïau a phrosiectau. Mae’n hanfodol bod gennym ddeialog barhaus drwy fforymau o’r fath, yn ogystal â’n bod yn cwrdd â grwpiau, yn mynychu derbyniadau ac yn cael y dystiolaeth sydd mor helaeth yn y maes hwn. Sefydlwyd y grŵp fel grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen i adrodd ar ddyletswydd cydraddoldeb anabledd Gweinidogion Cymru, ac mae’n cynnwys ystod o randdeiliaid i’n helpu ni i gymryd camau cydlynol ar wella cyfle cyfartal i bobl anabl. Fel y dywedais ddoe yn y Siambr yn fy natganiad ar gydraddoldebau, rwyf wedi penderfynu y dylai’r grŵp barhau fel fforwm parhaus, ond gyda chylch gorchwyl diwygiedig, gan ei fod yn rhoi cyfraniad mor werthfawr i’r agenda cydraddoldeb.

Assembly Members will be pleased to note that, at the last meeting in June, we heard from Action on Hearing Loss Cymru about the difference that lip-reading classes can make to people’s lives. Therefore, I am glad that Ann Jones, as the chair of the all-party group on deaf issues, has raised that point. Lip-reading classes can help people to adapt to hearing loss and to the use of hearing aids, and provide advice on the maintenance of hearing aids and on coping strategies. Indeed, officials are working now with Action on Hearing Loss Cymru and other charities to explore practical ways of improving access to lip-reading training for people with hearing loss, and it will be meeting in October to discuss potential approaches. There was a positive response at the reception yesterday from people, who felt that it was worth being involved in that forum, as they saw that it could lead to action. Although I take the lead as the Minister with responsibility for equality, there is cross-Governmental action, for example, in terms of the response of the education department on the particular issue of lip-reading classes.

Bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn falch o nodi inni glywed, yn y cyfarfod diwethaf ym mis Mehefin, gan Action on Hearing Loss Cymru am y gwahaniaeth y gall dosbarthiadau darllen gwefusau ei wneud i fywydau pobl. Felly, yr wyf yn falch bod Ann Jones, fel cadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar faterion pobl fyddar, wedi codi’r pwynt hwnnw. Gall dosbarthiadau darllen gwefusau helpu pobl i addasu i golli clyw ac i ddefnyddio cymhorthion clyw, a rhoi cyngor ar gynnal a chadw cymhorthion clyw ac ar strategaethau ymdopi. Yn wir, mae swyddogion yn gweithio bellach gydag Action on Hearing Loss Cymru ac elusennau eraill i archwilio ffyrdd ymarferol o wella mynediad i hyfforddiant darllen gwefusau i bobl sydd wedi colli eu clyw, a bydd yn cyfarfod ym mis Hydref i drafod dulliau posibl. Cafwyd ymateb cadarnhaol yn y derbyniad ddoe gan bobl, a oedd yn teimlo ei bod yn werth cymryd rhan yn y fforwm hwnnw, gan eu bod yn gweld y gallai arwain at weithredu. Er fy mod yn arwain fel y Gweinidog â chyfrifoldeb dros gydraddoldeb, ceir gweithredu traws-Lywodraethol, er enghraifft, o ran ymateb yr adran addysg ar y mater penodol o ddosbarthiadau darllen gwefusau.

With regard to the actions that we intend to take forward to address the barriers and to develop policies and programmes, organisations such as Action on Hearing Loss Cymru and the National Deaf Children’s Society, and the all-party group, which now has new members, as Ann Jones said, have made a huge difference to the way in which we have developed policies and programmes and the funding that we have allocated. It is important to increase the number of British Sign Language interpreters in Wales in order to allow deaf people to access communications support more easily. I take on board Jenny Rathbone’s point about this in relation to access to public services. When we developed the BSL scheme, we produced guidance for public bodies on how they would deliver it, and we funded it extensively, with European support. It is important to note, despite the disappointing response and experience that constituents may have brought to your attention, that now, given the public sector’s specific duties, a lack of adherence to those policies can be addressed through the statutory route.

O ran y camau y bwriadwn eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â rhwystrau ac i ddatblygu polisïau a rhaglenni, mae sefydliadau megis Action on Hearing Loss Cymru a’r Gymdeithas Genedlaethol i Blant Byddar, a’r grŵp trawsbleidiol, sydd bellach ag aelodau newydd, fel y dywedodd Ann Jones, wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth enfawr i’r ffordd yr ydym wedi datblygu polisïau a rhaglenni a’r cyllid rydym wedi ei ddyrannu. Mae’n bwysig i gynyddu nifer y dehonglwyr Iaith Arwyddion Prydain yng Nghymru er mwyn galluogi pobl fyddar i gael cymorth cyfathrebu yn haws. Yr wyf yn derbyn pwynt Jenny Rathbone ynglŷn â hyn o ran cael mynediad i wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Pan wnaethom ddatblygu’r cynllun BSL, gwnaethom gynhyrchu canllawiau ar gyfer cyrff cyhoeddus ynghylch sut y byddent yn ei gyflawni, ac fe’i hariannwyd gennym yn helaeth, gyda chymorth Ewropeaidd. Mae’n bwysig nodi, er gwaethaf yr ymateb a’r profiad siomedig y mae etholwyr wedi ei ddwyn i’ch sylw, yn awr, gan ystyried dyletswyddau penodol y sector cyhoeddus, gallwn fynd i’r afael â’r diffyg ymlyniad at y polisïau hynny drwy’r llwybr statudol.

6.30 p.m.

It is also important, as was acknowledged last week, that we introduced the newborn hearing screening programme, which means that hearing loss is identified within the first few weeks of a baby’s life, and that we modernise audiology services in Wales. It is also important, as the Assembly Member for Swansea East said, that we introduce the quality standards for audiology in Wales. That includes local development plans across health boards, ensuring that audiology services improve and meet progressive targets.

Mae hefyd yn bwysig, fel y cydnabuwyd yr wythnos diwethaf, ein bod yn cyflwyno rhaglen sgrinio clyw babanod newydd-anedig, sy’n golygu bod colli clyw yn cael ei nodi o fewn yr ychydig wythnosau cyntaf o fywyd baban, a’n bod yn moderneiddio gwasanaethau awdioleg yng Nghymru. Mae hefyd yn bwysig, fel y dywedodd yr Aelod Cynulliad dros Ddwyrain Abertawe, ein bod yn cyflwyno’r safonau ansawdd ar gyfer awdioleg yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n cynnwys cynlluniau datblygu lleol ar draws byrddau iechyd, gan sicrhau bod gwasanaethau clyw yn gwella a chyflawni targedau cynyddol.

It is important that I provide an update to the Assembly Member for Swansea East and other Members on the current situation with information forwarded to the mental health programme board. This is a matter for the Department for Health and Social Services, but, again, it is cross-governmental action that needs to be taken. With regard to that update, a presentation was made by the RNID and the National Deaf Children’s Society, and the mental health programme board has advised that services should respond by providing more local provision, and it has referred this evidence to the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee. As a result, the specialist child and adolescent mental health services are accepting referrals of deaf children and using support from the English national deaf services where required. An expert advisory group was convened to help progress the recommendations from ‘Breaking the Barriers’ to strengthen improvement in this area.

Mae’n bwysig fy mod yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i’r Aelod Cynulliad dros Ddwyrain Abertawe ac Aelodau eraill ar y sefyllfa bresennol gyda gwybodaeth a anfonwyd ymlaen at y bwrdd rhaglen iechyd meddwl. Mae hwn yn fater i’r Adran Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, ond, unwaith eto, mae angen gweithredu’n draws-lywodraethol. O ran y newyddion diweddaraf, cafwyd cyflwyniad gan yr RNID a’r Gymdeithas Genedlaethol i Blant Byddar, ac y mae’r bwrdd rhaglen iechyd meddwl wedi cynghori y dylai gwasanaethau ymateb drwy ddarparu mwy o ddarpariaeth leol, ac y mae wedi cyfeirio’r dystiolaeth hon i Bwyllgor Gwasanaethau Iechyd Arbenigol Cymru. O ganlyniad, mae’r gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl arbenigol ar gyfer plant a’r glasoed yn derbyn atgyfeiriadau plant byddar ac yn defnyddio cefnogaeth gan wasanaethau byddar cenedlaethol Lloegr lle bo angen. Cynullwyd grŵp cynghori arbenigol i helpu datblygu argymhellion ‘Chwalu’r Rhwystrau’ er mwyn cryfhau gwelliant yn y maes.

It is very important that Mike Hedges talked about public health and the promotion of awareness campaigns. I agree with the Assembly Member about the music players that are now commonly used by children and young people. Action on Hearing Loss Cymru gave evidence on the damage that loud music and listening to MP3 players at dangerous volumes can do. Again, to update you and to assure you, officials from Public Health Wales and health boards are working with the charity on ideas about how these messages and that awareness can be spread among the public, and particularly to young people.

Mae’n bwysig iawn bod Mike Hedges wedi siarad am iechyd y cyhoedd a hyrwyddo ymgyrchoedd ymwybyddiaeth. Yr wyf yn cytuno â’r Aelod Cynulliad am y chwaraewyr cerddoriaeth sydd bellach yn cael eu defnyddio’n gyffredin gan blant a phobl ifanc. Rhoddodd Gweithredu ar Golli Clyw Cymru dystiolaeth ar y difrod y gall cerddoriaeth uchel a gwrando ar chwaraewyr MP3 gyda’r sain yn beryglus o uchel eu gwneud. Unwaith eto, i roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i chi ac er mwyn eich sicrhau, mae swyddogion Iechyd Cyhoeddus Cymru a byrddau iechyd yn gweithio gyda’r elusen ar syniadau ynghylch sut y gall y negeseuon hyn a’r ymwybyddiaeth hwnnw cael eu lledaenu ymhlith y cyhoedd, ac yn enwedig i bobl ifanc.

Finally, I want to focus on the importance of the public sector specific duties. We now have these new equality duties on public sector organisations in Wales. The duties contain provision for involvement, engagement and consultation with people affected by the decisions taken by public authorities. They also require public authorities to engage with those with one or more of the protected characteristics and not just those who represent their interests in the development work around the duties. Along with most public bodies, the Welsh Government has adopted the social model of disability, recognising that people with impairments are disabled by the barriers that commonly exist in society and helping us to formulate policies to remove those barriers.

Yn olaf, yr wyf am ganolbwyntio ar bwysigrwydd dyletswyddau penodol y sector cyhoeddus. Erbyn hyn mae gan sefydliadau sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru dyletswyddau cydraddoldeb newydd. Mae’r dyletswyddau yn cynnwys darpariaeth ar gyfer cyfranogiad, ymgysylltu ac ymgynghori â phobl yr effeithir arnynt gan y penderfyniadau a wneir gan awdurdodau cyhoeddus. Maent hefyd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau cyhoeddus ymgysylltu â’r rhai sydd ag un neu ragor o’r nodweddion gwarchodedig ac nid yn unig y rhai sy’n cynrychioli eu buddiannau yn y gwaith datblygu o gwmpas y dyletswyddau. Ynghyd â rhan fwyaf o gyrff cyhoeddus, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi mabwysiadu’r model cymdeithasol o anabledd, gan gydnabod bod pobl â namau yn cael eu hanablu gan y rhwystrau sy’n bodoli yn gyffredin yn y gymdeithas ac yn ein helpu i lunio polisïau i gael gwared ar y rhwystrau hynny.

Mark Isherwood reminded us of those barriers. It has been so useful that the whole Assembly adopted the social model of disability in the early days. Good work has been done on recommendations for access to the arts for those who are deaf and those with hearing loss. I will seek to provide the regional Member for North Wales with an update on the impact of those recommendations in that respect. To go back to the point made by Mark Isherwood and Suzy Davies about the mapping process, the process that we are undertaking, applying the social model to our specific duties, includes issues such as the accessibility of buildings and the accessibility of resources provided—whether information is provided in plain English and Cymraeg clir for example. The specialist support for those who learn through the medium of Welsh is something that the mapping process should address. Suzy Davies made that point, and we will take that on board.

Cawsom ein hatgoffa gan Mark Isherwood o’r rhwystrau hynny. Mae wedi bod mor ddefnyddiol bod y Cynulliad i gyd wedi mabwysiadu’r model cymdeithasol o anabledd yn y dyddiau cynnar. Mae gwaith da wedi’i wneud ar argymhellion ar gyfer mynediad at y celfyddydau ar gyfer y rhai sy’n fyddar a’r rhai â nam ar y clyw. Byddaf yn ceisio darparu i’r Aelod rhanbarthol dros Ogledd Cymru diweddariad ar effaith yr argymhellion hynny yn hynny o beth. I fynd yn ôl at y pwynt a wnaeth Mark Isherwood a Suzy Davies am y broses fapio, mae’r broses yr ydym yn ei wneud, gan gymhwyso’r model cymdeithasol i’n dyletswyddau penodol, yn cynnwys materion megis hygyrchedd adeiladau a hygyrchedd adnoddau a ddarperir—a yw gwybodaeth yn cael ei ddarparu yn Saesneg a Chymraeg clir er enghraifft. Dylai’r broses fapio fynd i’r afael â’r cymorth arbenigol ar gyfer y rhai sy’n dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Gwnaeth Suzy Davies y pwynt hwnnw, a byddwn yn ystyried hynny.

Mention was made of the availability of staff, loop systems, access to sign language, interpreters and communication support. It is important that we see this as cross-governmental. The point about education takes us to Members’ requests for us to look at the work done on compliance with acoustic standards in schools. That is something I took up when I was the Minister for education, and officials are already meeting with the National Deaf Children’s Society to discuss compliance issues, including the implications of building bulletin 93 on acoustics in schools. An agreement to comply with BB93 is a condition of grant for all future schools funding contracts. This began with the second tranche of funding contracts that were issued through our capital programme in 2010-11 for this financial year. That was a major step forward. It is a requirement for local authorities to obtain a pre-completion test to ensure compliance.

Soniwyd am argaeledd staff, systemau dolen, mynediad at iaith arwyddion, cyfieithwyr a chefnogaeth cyfathrebu. Mae’n bwysig fod hyn yn cael ei weld yn draws-lywodraethol. Mae’r pwynt am addysg yn ein cyfeirio at geisiadau Aelodau am inni edrych ar y gwaith a wnaed ar gydymffurfio â safonau acwstig mewn ysgolion. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth yr ymgymerais ag ef pan oeddwn yn Weinidog dros addysg, ac y mae swyddogion eisoes yn cyfarfod â’r Gymdeithas Genedlaethol ar gyfer Plant Byddar i drafod materion cydymffurfio, gan gynnwys goblygiadau bwletin adeiladu 93 ar acwsteg mewn ysgolion. Mae’r cytundeb i gydymffurfio â BB93 yn un o’r amodau grant ar gyfer holl gontractau cyllido ysgolion yn y dyfodol. Dechreuodd hyn gyda’r ail gyfran o gontractau ariannu a gyhoeddwyd trwy ein rhaglen gyfalaf yn 2010-11 ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon. Yr oedd hwnnw’n gam mawr ymlaen. Mae’n ofyniad i awdurdodau lleol i gael prawf cyn cwblhau er mwyn sicrhau cydymffurfiad.

Rebecca Evans’s focus on the commitment in our manifesto and programme of government in relation to deaf issues, particularly children’s needs, and the point about individual development plans is crucial with regard to the way in which we take this forward. This brings us back to the importance of the public sector equality duty. Our objectives will be set out in a strategic equality plan, which will be published next April. People will be left in no doubt as to what we are trying to do to help to eliminate discrimination and promote equality.

Mae ffocws Rebecca Evans ar yr ymrwymiad yn ein maniffesto a’n rhaglen lywodraethu mewn perthynas â materion byddar, yn enwedig anghenion plant, a’r pwynt am gynlluniau datblygu unigol yn hanfodol o ran y ffordd yr ydym yn bwrw ymlaen â hyn. Mae hyn yn dod â ni yn ôl at bwysigrwydd dyletswydd cydraddoldeb y sector cyhoeddus. Bydd ein hamcanion yn cael eu nodi mewn cynllun cydraddoldeb strategol, a fydd yn cael ei gyhoeddi fis Ebrill nesaf. Ni fydd gan bobl unrhyw amheuaeth ynghylch yr hyn yr ydym yn ceisio’i wneud i helpu i ddileu gwahaniaethu ac i hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb.

This opportunity to fulfil our leadership role and take our responsibilities forward is particularly pertinent as a result of this short debate, which will have a significant influence in providing an update on the progress that has been made and to outline the issues that we still need to address. I thank the Member for Swansea East, Michael Hedges, for bringing this subject forward today for debate.

Mae’r cyfle i gyflawni ein rôl arwain a bwrw ymlaen gyda’n cyfrifoldebau yn arbennig o berthnasol o ganlyniad i’r ddadl fer hon, a fydd yn cael dylanwad sylweddol o ran rhoi diweddariad ar y cynnydd a wnaed ac i amlinellu’r materion y mae dal rhaid inni roi sylw iddynt. Diolch i’r Aelod dros Ddwyrain Abertawe, Michael Hedges, am ddod â’r pwnc gerbron heddiw ar gyfer y ddadl.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Mae hynny yn dwyn gweithgareddau’r dydd i ben.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 6.36 p.m.
The meeting ended at 6.36 p.m.

Aelodau a’u Pleidiau
Members and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)
Antoniw, Mick (Llafur – Labour)
Asghar, Mohammad (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)
Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)
Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)
Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)
Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Davies, Byron (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Davies, Keith (Llafur – Labour)
Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Davies, Suzy (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Drakeford, Mark (Llafur – Labour)
Elis-Thomas, Yr Arglwydd/Lord (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Evans, Rebecca (Llafur – Labour)
Finch-Saunders, Janet (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
George, Russell (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Gething, Vaughan (Llafur – Labour)
Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)
Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)
Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)
Gruffydd, Llyr Huws (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)
Hedges, Mike (Llafur – Labour)
Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)
Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
James, Julie (Llafur – Labour)
Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)
Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)
Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)
Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)
Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Morgan, Julie (Llafur – Labour)
Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)
Eluned Parrott (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Powell, William (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Price, Gwyn R. (Llafur – Labour)
Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Rathbone, Jenny (Llafur – Labour)
Rees, David (Llafur – Labour)
Roberts, Aled (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Sandbach, Antoinette (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)
Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)
Skates, Kenneth (Llafur – Labour)
Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Thomas, Simon (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)
Whittle, Lindsay (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)
Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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